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How doesn't this favor classes that already have a MS like warriors?


Mortal Strike (and similar effects) are applied multiplicatively. That means they don't become any more (or less) effective as Dampening begins to stack.

Here's a quick, if mathy, example: Say you cast a heal that, unmodified, would heal for 100k. If Mortal Strike is active, that heal is reduced by 25%, for a final amount of 75k (and a loss of 25k healing).

Now, say Dampening is at 10%. Your 100k heal would then land for 90k. Mortal Strike would only affect the remaining 90k healing, putting the final amount healed at 67.5k. The heal was still 25% less effective than it would have been if Mortal Strike wasn't active, but was only reduced by 22.5K -- which, you may notice, is 10% less than the previous example, keeping it in line with the effects of Dampening.

TL;DR: Mortal Strike (and similar effects) are not made any more or less desirable by Dampening.
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90 Human Warrior
4935
Looks good and reasonable.
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90 Draenei Hunter
8605
This change that you are going to put into the game is bad for so many reasons and I will give examples of why. There are several arena compositions that will be able to exploit this mechanic. Double stealth teams hiding, double hybrid teams that can CC and run away while having enough heals to keep themselves alive until the point where the buff kicks in and it becomes a 2 DPS VS a DPS and a gimped healer with poor DPS ability. Imagine a melee and healer composition going up against hunters who can pretty much remain untouched by the melee DPS and not take enough damage from whatever ranged attacks the healer decides to throw at them for it to matter before the buff kicks in.

The fact of the matter is that you are putting very specific buffs/debuffs into the game that target very specific arena compositions. Making changes like this to balance arenas will always be exploitable by other compositions and shows just exactly how badly broken PVP has become. I think it is a terrible idea to try and balance PVP with specific buffs and debuffs and it only illustrates how poorly the developers understand the problems at hand.

How did we get here and what can be done to fix this? The problem lies in arena matches with healers lasting well over 10 minutes because healers simply don't go out of mana. The developers have brought healing to a point that mana regen and management is almost a complete non issue and on top of that have compounded the problem by removing the mana drains that used to be an essential part of PVP. You must also factor in that giving classes 2 to 3 forms of CC gives healers so much time to escape and regen their mana.

Until Blizzard's developers accept the real problems in arenas and make changes to address those problems, these composition specific buffs and debuffs will only lead to exploitative compositions and tactics to work around these very specific and targeted design flaws.
Edited by Pales on 10/10/2013 2:52 PM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
14190
10/10/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Lore
How is that fair to Unholy DKS? Necro strikes are their main source of killing in arnea. So you're going to nerf their main source of DMG cause of a healing debuff?


Only the absorption affect will be reduced, not the damage output.


This just in; no one uses necrotic for the damage output, more news at 11.
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90 Worgen Mage
9540
it still favors MS classes... so the less effective heal will be even less effective..

10/10/2013 02:41 PMPosted by Lore
How doesn't this favor classes that already have a MS like warriors?


Mortal Strike (and similar effects) are applied multiplicatively. That means they don't become any more (or less) effective as Dampening begins to stack.

Here's a quick, if mathy, example: Say you cast a heal that, unmodified, would heal for 100k. If Mortal Strike is active, that heal is reduced by 25%, for a final amount of 75k (and a loss of 25k healing).

Now, say Dampening is at 10%. Your 100k heal would then land for 90k. Mortal Strike would only affect the remaining 90k healing, putting the final amount healed at 67.5k. The heal was still 25% less effective than it would have been if Mortal Strike wasn't active, but was only reduced by 22.5K -- which, you may notice, is 10% less than the previous example, keeping it in line with the effects of Dampening.

TL;DR: Mortal Strike (and similar effects) are not made any more or less desirable by Dampening.


They are more effective because at a certain point of dampening. MS will reduce the avail heals to damage ratio for one comp faster than if no ms is present. How does this not favor MS classes exactly......

Priest warrior 10% dampening. + MS
Priest Feral 10% dampening no ms.
Who wins?(Lets ignore the stupid state of warriors)
All things being equal MS wins the game.
Edited by Bûsted on 10/10/2013 3:03 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
16320
TL;DR: Mortal Strike (and similar effects) are not made any more or less desirable by Dampening.


People that need those kind of explanations shouldn't be posting in here to begin with...
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So, under normal circumstances, the only matches that will realistically be affected by this are Healer/DPS vs Healer/DPS, in which case both healers are being affected equally.


This really isn't true, and I am continually surprised that people who work at Blizzard continue to believe this. Different healers have different healing outputs, and blanket reductions in healing reduce some healers below the "enough output to keep someone alive" line before others.

I don't really care about this situation specifically since lol2s, but... /boggle
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90 Undead Monk
7450
10/10/2013 03:04 PMPosted by Zhana
TL;DR: Mortal Strike (and similar effects) are not made any more or less desirable by Dampening.


People that need those kind of explanations shouldn't be posting in here to begin with...


No way brah, with 75% damage reduction from resilience, warriors can sit in their 25% DR defensive stance and take 0 damage the whole game. 75% + 25% = 100%!!!!
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90 Orc Shaman
9720
How about none of these dumb buffs / debuffs and just cap matches at 15 min and grant the win to the team with the most players alive OR in the case of 2's the team that landed the first kill.
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Who wins?(Lets ignore the stupid state of warriors)


Made your whole post invalid.
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90 Orc Warrior
10505
10/10/2013 02:41 PMPosted by Lore
How doesn't this favor classes that already have a MS like warriors?


Mortal Strike (and similar effects) are applied multiplicatively. That means they don't become any more (or less) effective as Dampening begins to stack.

Here's a quick, if mathy, example: Say you cast a heal that, unmodified, would heal for 100k. If Mortal Strike is active, that heal is reduced by 25%, for a final amount of 75k (and a loss of 25k healing).

Now, say Dampening is at 10%. Your 100k heal would then land for 90k. Mortal Strike would only affect the remaining 90k healing, putting the final amount healed at 67.5k. The heal was still 25% less effective than it would have been if Mortal Strike wasn't active, but was only reduced by 22.5K -- which, you may notice, is 10% less than the previous example, keeping it in line with the effects of Dampening.

TL;DR: Mortal Strike (and similar effects) are not made any more or less desirable by Dampening.


Ty for the explanation :D
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90 Undead Rogue
7665
What's to stop double rogue or rogue/feral from turtling in stealth for as long as possible then blowing someone up after the heal debuff is applied?
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What's to stop double rogue or rogue/feral from turtling in stealth for as long as possible then blowing someone up after the heal debuff is applied?


I've seen rogues grab the eye before you can and go right back into stealth. I think the best way to fix this is to have the eye give classes a debuff that prevents them from going stealth for 30 seconds.
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90 Undead Rogue
7665
10/10/2013 03:22 PMPosted by Tacohands
What's to stop double rogue or rogue/feral from turtling in stealth for as long as possible then blowing someone up after the heal debuff is applied?


I've seen rogues grab the eye before you can and go right back into stealth. I think the best way to fix this is to have the eye give classes a debuff that prevents them from going stealth for 30 seconds.


exactly. something needs to be done to the eye so can't just grab it first CC>run>stealth or vanish right away.
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terrible terrible change

class that rely on healing more than damage mitigation get screwed

good bye hybrids
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exactly. something needs to be done to the eye so can't just grab it first CC>run>stealth or vanish right away.


I concur.
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What's to stop double rogue or rogue/feral from turtling in stealth for as long as possible then blowing someone up after the heal debuff is applied?


What's to stop double rogue or rogue/feral from turtling in stealth for as long as possible then blowing someone up after the heal debuff is applied?


same thing with hunters that are glyphed. stealth then send their pet in to kill everyone
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10/10/2013 03:26 PMPosted by Tacohands
exactly. something needs to be done to the eye so can't just grab it first CC>run>stealth or vanish right away.


I concur.


better idea

make arena 15 minutes

if no winner

declare draw

no rating change no point gain

fixed

why over complicate things?
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better idea

make arena 15 minutes

if no winner

declare draw

no rating change no point gain

fixed

why over complicate things?


This is all fine and dandy, but something still needs to be done about the eye.
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