Need resto shaman advice

90 Draenei Shaman
6985
So I've been trying to become a better shaman healer, and most of the guides I've looked at rank Crit as pretty important over haste (at least haste past an appropriate breakpoint). I've reforged some of my gear to get more crit, but in doing so my HPS has dropped to hover aroun 49k (sometimes even lower raiding), which to me seems a tad low. When I stacked more haste, my HPS was often staying much higher (around 60-80k), but at the same time my mana runs out quicker because I have less crits to proc resurgence and also I'm casting spells quicker. When I did stack more crit though, I was able to get Gold for healing in the proving grounds, but not when I stacked haste because I would run out of mana.

So my question for other Resto Shammys is this: How do you approach stats on gear and what is your healing output like? I know HPS isn't by any means a measure of a healers skill, but I still should be pulling more healing output in the PGs.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
For PG i used my T13 gear. Put a +320 spirit gem in every socket ignoring socket bonuses. Also most of the pieces had a decent amount of mastery on them so even when scaled down i think i was at 55% mastery.

Did most of my healing with HW to be honest. Took UF as my level 90 talent as well. Even during ascendence i was just samming HW.

PG are about longevity more than output.

As a shaman the most important thing to do is use your toolkit, grounding totem, capacitor totem, totemic recall, ect.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8540
Also, Riptide Unglyphed is more effective in PG. I, like Harpoa, use Healing Wave more in there, but I went for a Crit/Spirit instead of Spirit/Mastery build
I just find whatever has the most sockets and use that.

Also, it looks like you're unenchanted, enchants will help immensely.

I go for Primal Elementalist so I can get the extra stun from the Earth Ele and the extra damage to help burn things down faster.
Edited by Chrysippus on 10/11/2013 1:03 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Vixsen's got a good write up in LiG5. Give it a read.

http://lifeingroup5.com/
Edited by Harpoa on 10/11/2013 1:21 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
6985
Thanks for the quick replies, they were all very helpful. I did some reforging and I will check out that write up Harpoa, looks interesting.

As for enchants, I'm on Laughing Skull so it is hard to find enchanters, the realm is pretty dead. But I'll definitely look into it I've been needing to get my gear enchanted.
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90 Goblin Shaman
12385
It's ultimately a balancing act. While haste breakpoints are somewhat important, they're not nearly as important for shaman as they are for say druids. Shift things around until you get comfortable. For example, I like the responsiveness of the 7116 haste breakpoint for shaman. Also, I heal with a druid and a paly, so I try to dump as much mastery as possible. I'd like to have about 50%, but so much of our gear has mastery this tier that I'm hovering around 60%. So, when my gear changes the first thing I do is shift things around until I get close to 7116 haste, then I take my remaining mastery and dump it into crit. I've also been pretty spirit heavy for awhile for my tastes, so I also dump that into crit where I can. For my healing style and with my setup I can easily sustain 200+k healing if I have to.
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35 Troll Shaman
8070
I'm a baby healer and I so much like to read these posts, learning things from you guys :)
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90 Troll Shaman
4435
Are you just doing LFR?

If I were you, I would toss that orange gem on the boots for either Int, Spirit, or Int/Spirit. Because the 60 Spirit socket bonus is not worth it in my opinion.

But I am a minimal Haste kind of guy, I reforge out of it as much as I can and don't gem for it at all, unless I can hit a breakpoint without sacrificing much. I used to focus on Mastery earlier this expansion, but now I'm at a point where I can't get lower than about 50% Mastery anyways, so I'm going for Crit. It is in flex and normal modes, usually about as good for throughput as Mastery, but better for mana regen.

You also need to pay attention to diminishing returns. If you focus too much on one or the other, the gains from it per point spent will be less. Diminishing returns on both stats is what makes Intellect more interesting because it does not diminish, and at this point, I will slightly prefer 1 point of Int to 2 points of any of the secondaries.

Crit is also nicer with the legendary cloak.
Edited by Kuwilei on 10/12/2013 11:47 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
6985
Are you just doing LFR?

If I were you, I would toss that orange gem on the boots for either Int, Spirit, or Int/Spirit. Because the 60 Spirit socket bonus is not worth it in my opinion.

But I am a minimal Haste kind of guy, I reforge out of it as much as I can and don't gem for it at all, unless I can hit a breakpoint without sacrificing much. I used to focus on Mastery earlier this expansion, but now I'm at a point where I can't get lower than about 50% Mastery anyways, so I'm going for Crit. It is in flex and normal modes, usually about as good for throughput as Mastery, but better for mana regen.

You also need to pay attention to diminishing returns. If you focus too much on one or the other, the gains from it per point spent will be less. Diminishing returns on both stats is what makes Intellect more interesting because it does not diminish, and at this point, I will slightly prefer 1 point of Int to 2 points of any of the secondaries.

Crit is also nicer with the legendary cloak.


Right now I am strictly doing LFR and don't have any problems there, but I still want to be a better healer. My guild is going to start normal and flex regularly and eventually work into heroic if we can, so I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row. I will be replacing gems which I was in the process of doing, but our AH on my server is pretty deserted so I buy em when I can (My DK has jewelcrafting, but not a whole lot of recipes). I reforged to get a lot more mastery and crit (I actually think my mastery was too low which was causing my HPS to be weaker). I'm also working on getting the legendary cape at the moment.

Also how much mastery do you guys tend to get? I've heard a lot of guides and resto shamans talk about around 50% total Mastery buffed or 5400 rating but that seems a bit low.
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90 Draenei Shaman
5830
10/12/2013 11:45 AMPosted by Kuwilei
You also need to pay attention to diminishing returns. If you focus too much on one or the other, the gains from it per point spent will be less. Diminishing returns on both stats is what makes Intellect more interesting because it does not diminish, and at this point, I will slightly prefer 1 point of Int to 2 points of any of the secondaries.


This is wrong, there are no diminishing returns on stats for healers.

Every stat point adds a fixed amount of spellpower, critical%, haste%, or mastery%, regardless of how much you already have.

You can easily verify this in-game.

Also how much mastery do you guys tend to get? I've heard a lot of guides and resto shamans talk about around 50% total Mastery buffed or 5400 rating but that seems a bit low.


As little as possible. The 50% Mastery business is just made up. There is nothing special about 50% Mastery.

I co-wrote an addon that analyzes my heals in real time, and calculates how much 1 point of each stat would increase my effective healing. You can't do this with logs, unfortunately, because logs don't record the health of the targets you heal.

Mastery is consistently the worst of the three secondary stats for me in LFR, Flex, 10N and 10H raids. It is especially bad in environments with massive overhealing, like LFR (although I wouldn't draw conclusions about stat values in flex/normal content from LFR, because it is so different). In 10H content, Mastery sometimes almost draws even with Crit, depending on the fight, but it is rarely if ever actually better, and sometimes it is still much worse.

If you start doing flex or normal raiding casually, you will probably be 3-healing, which also makes Mastery extremely ineffective. The same is true to some extent even if you 2-heal with an absorb healer.

My advice is to go for the highest Healing Rain or HST haste breakpoint you can reach with an adequate Spirit level and without putting yellow gems in your red sockets (orange is OK). Due to a bug, the HST breakpoints depend on your latency, so you need to go a little above them. After that, if you still have Mastery you can reforge, reforge it to Crit.

Proving Grounds is different matter entirely, and it is a good idea to use an older set of gear that you can gem/reforge/enchant differently. Haste should be avoided in PG, since it does nothing to improve your mana efficiency.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
There are a number of viable ways to gear as a Resto Shaman. You can make valid arguments for stacking to very high haste breakpoints, for gemming and stacking Crit (even over gemming INT) or for stacking to maximum Spirit (to maximize raid MTT gain).

The only thing that I would say is objectively "wrong" is Mastery stacking. Mastery generally has 1/3 or less of the value of Crit, Haste or Spirit per itemization point. It performs significantly weaker than other secondary stats even on fights where you think that it should be strong (i.e. H Thok, H Norushen). You can make the argument about "clutch healing" trumping total throughput, but I think that argument is extremely suspect at a 3:1 handicap. Mastery is just a weak, inferior stat that should be avoided where possible and that you should drop as much of as possible.

As far as other stats, in general, you want to go with something similar to

Spirit to Comfort > Haste to desired break point > Int > Crit > Additional Spirit > Additional Haste > Mastery

You need to figure out what your desired Spirit level is based on your playstyle, how often you use Totemic Recall to clip totems, etc. The higher your Crit % is, the lower your required Spirit levels are, because of Resurgence. As a general guideline, 1000 Crit is worth about 250 Spirit in terms of regen.

As far as haste breakpoints, with the 5.4 changes, the HR, HST and HTT breakpoints are the only ones I think are worth gearing to. Riptide ticks are a fairly insignificant output increase, and ELW breakpoints always were insignificant, but are even moreso with the 5.4 changes. It also isn't necessarily worth going for haste breakpoints if you have to use haste gems in all or most slots, because the INT/Spirit loss is likely to be a larger throughput loss than the haste breakpoint gains you. Once you hit 520-525 ilvl, I would recommend going to the 7613 haste breakpoint. If you are Troll, you may want to consider going to 8918 (which you probably need closer to 9100 to reliably hit) once you are at 540+ ilvl for the extra HST and HTT+Berserking tick. If you aren't Troll, it's questionable if going past 7613 is worth it. At very high gear levels (probably 575ish) and with haste items in almost all available slots, you can consider going to 15,316 for an extra HR tick. All of those breakpoints are assuming that you are using Ancestral Swiftness (if you take another talent you need more haste), and are not Goblin (will need less haste).

Once you hit your desired haste and Spirit levels, the most common approach is to use INT gems in red sockets, INT/Spirit gems in Blue sockets and INT/Haste or INT/Crit gems in Yellow sockets. You can make the argument that you should be gemming Crit over gemming INT, because 2 Crit is more throughput than 1 INT on paper. In practice, I have always found that INT gemming is superior to Crit gemming, probably because of the overhealing factor.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
10/13/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Tiberria
The only thing that I would say is objectively "wrong" is Mastery stacking. Mastery generally has 1/3 or less of the value of Crit, Haste or Spirit per itemization point.


Think it differs in 25 man to 10 to be honest. But that is just my opinion. I had the most amazing HTT i have ever seen this past week and pretty sure it was due to mastery, not crit.
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90 Draenei Shaman
6985
Very interesting discussion going on between Crit and Mastery.

I actually did a flex raid this week focusing more on mastery and didn't do too bad. Although I agree with some of the arguments made on here relating to Crit. I've been testing out some different builds but some of you answered my question relating to Mastery. I will focus on some more Crit in the meantime and see how I do after raids reset.

Thanks to everyone to replied to this thread, every post was helpful.
Edited by Nfinitybeard on 10/13/2013 6:30 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
5830
Tiberria's post is a good summary, although a 3:1 handicap on Mastery is not supported by the evidence I've seen with my addon (in pretty much any 10-man fight).

In challenging fights where healing may make a difference, I find it is more like

1200 Mastery = +1% effective healing
900 Crit Rating = +1% effective healing
~500 Intellect = +1% effective healing

(these effective healing numbers handle overhealing correctly - meaning they don't count it)

This points out another important fact: players massively over-estimate the impact of stat choices.

Supposing you have 7200 (to pick a round number in the right ballpark) secondary stats to play around with between gemming, reforging and enchants.

Based on the numbers above, the difference between putting all 7200 into Mastery and putting all 7200 into Crit is still only a few percent difference in effective healing, and you would need weeks or months of careful testing under unrealistically controlled conditions to actually see such a small difference above the statistical noise of the RNG.

With that in mind, Spirit (or more accurately, regen) is really the only secondary stat that you can screw up badly, because if you have too much it adds *nothing* to your healing, and if you have too little you can OOM, leading to a catastrophic loss of output.
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90 Troll Shaman
4435
there are no diminishing returns on stats for healers.

Is that so? I feel dumb, because now that I think about it, I remember reading all over about how x many points = 3% or so for the secondaries. But I recall at some point reforging a small amount of Mastery away to see a big gain in Crit in a heavy Mastery build, so I assumed Diminishing Returns were in effect.

Is the addon you are talking about RestoShamanStats? Pretty helpful addon. Good that it shows you a fight-to-fight basis stat weights, and in my experience it seems accurate.

But to answer OP, everybody who's anybody seems to be stacking lots of Crit. I'm a little biased for Mastery because I like it, and I wish today's healing game included a bit more triage.
10/13/2013 11:20 PMPosted by Rheeah
Spirit (or more accurately, regen) is really the only secondary stat that you can screw up badly, because if you have too much it adds *nothing* to your healing,

Disagree with you here. If you have more mana than is necessary, you can simply convert it to throughput when needed via expensive, high HPS heals, such as a few Healing Surges where you would otherwise GHW. Am not saying this is as efficient, but it's something to consider. And it's nice to err on the side of caution.
Edited by Kuwilei on 10/15/2013 9:25 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
11435
When it comes to flex/normal modes, it really does depend on the rest of your group, (specifically healers) whether mastery or crit is going to work best for you.

For example, in ToT 10m normal I was healing with a Disc/Druid team, so I went mastery. My crits would've been mostly over healing, so my role was the 'oh crap' healer. On fights that had high damage phases, I could reliably keep people alive with my mastery build, whereas crit can be a bit jumpy. Then I would go dps for fights that were 2 healable.

In SoO on the other hand, we don't have a disc anymore, and I out gear our other 2 healers by quite a bit, so now I am the primary 'keep everyone alive all the time' guy. In this case, I need the crit to make sure I have enough mana to push 140k+ every fight (except immerseus lols).

As far as haste, I would highly recommend kitting the first haste breakpoint, 12.5% I think? and then going for enough spirit that you feel comfortable with your regen, followed by either crit or mastery depending on your specific place on your groups healing totem pole.
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90 Goblin Shaman
9825
I'm gearing my resto shaman to be my new main since I'm raiding with a group of friends and we are all basically starting over, so your saying I should drop haste down to the 12.5% breakpoint and stack crit? Also I will be healing with a resto druid and a holy paladin, I will akso more than likely be the swing healer for 2 heal fights... I've done a lot of research but any info I can get would be great...

Also I know my haste is way past my break points I got 2 upgrades yesterday and havent reforged yet.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
10/17/2013 06:55 AMPosted by Smègal
I've done a lot of research but any info I can get would be great...


Check out the following links. Lots of useful info.

From Vixsen
http://lifeingroup5.com/

From Dayani
http://healiocentric.wordpress.com/

Best thing to do is play around with your stats and see what works best for you and your team. It's the nice thing with shaman is that there is no "right" way to do it.
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90 Goblin Shaman
9825
Thanks harpoa, I've actually healed with you before in the beginning of cata when I was on my resto druid... I was going for the 25% haste breakpoint but I have a feeling that will be excessive in the comp we are running... thanks for the advice.
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