Ah we Suck, OMG we're AWESOME, We suck again

85 Blood Elf Hunter
7970
Good news everyone!

Hunters will be AWESOME!!!!!! Don't give up on your Hunter and if you don't have one, get to leveling.

But Kayko, we see these buffs then massive nerfs over and over, how can you say we are awesome?

Whats going on is that we are in the midst of a drastic mechanic change over. This is not just the change from Mana to Focus. We are now seeing a slightly better scaling with the rest of our gear ( though I would personally like to see a little more gear scaling). No more of the hunter in blues that got carried into Raids to get a great ranged weapon competing in damage with a hunter that has payed their dues, did the dailys, got the tier, yet have just not been lucky in getting a Zods (equivalant or better)

So, Kill command goes from being OP, to really weak, to even more OP, to what appears to be a balance. We saw Chimera and Aimed go through this as well. Most recent was Explosive shot to get the treatment.
Double buffs, double nerfs, What does this meen??? Well, here it goes, the reason Hunters are going to straight up killing bots. We all got to see how hard these abilities hit at the top of the buff range and it was.. WOW.. Amazing.. Wonderfull.. Even Hunters were going "Ok, this is a little OP" But what many also wondered is why the drastic changes in such a short period of time. The big buffs seemed to simply to obvious that it was going to be too strong.

Heres what looks to be going on. We are getting a preview of next tier gear or endgame gear.

Lets say you have 10000 AP in the lvl 85 starting raid gear. A shot coefficient is 25% of AP. That gives a shot 2500 damage from AP. Now, say you have 14000 AP in next tier gear, that 25% AP coefficiant puts you at 4300+ damage from AP. So, they can't very well and give premades T12 or better every time they want to adjust a shot. So, how to buff that T11 10000 AP to see what kind of numbers it will be doing in the next tier? Change the coefficiant to make that 10K AP gives about that 4300ish damage from AP, or 43% of AP.
This make sence?
They have an idea of how next tier of content will want to work, what they can't figure out is exactly how a shot is going to real game scale when it comes to that gear. We are seeing individual shots be just downright awesome.

So, why would they be doing this to Hunters and not so much to other classes? Simple, we are the ones that changed how we deal our damage versus other classes. The basic formulas for the other classes are still around, for the most part, the background numbers have not changed all too much for most classes. Since they are somewhat already in place, its a matter of little tweeks here and there to make the proper adjustments. We are getting a taste of how they decided to work out class damage when the game was first thought of.

We are going to scale amazingly with our gear, don't fear the current numbers we are seeing. Hunters are in a great place and by the time we are hitting mid raiding, EXPECT to see that green hunter bar on your Skada/Recount at the top of the list once again.
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100 Orc Hunter
7800
I hope you are right :). I skipped wotlk and just recently leveled...with the same mindset as I once was top dps again Hyjal/BT bosses. I only play my hunter and have been quite sad with my dps while farming heroics ><.
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Kayko omg ty so facking very much!!! i've been stuck as to level a hunter come cata or not, im just sooo bored with endgame that i need something fresh...so cata needs to hurry up and come out...I want my female worgen and core puppy!!! Yay...sorry...waaay to many redbulls today
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3390
Fackdally, nice name I like it.

*logs in to create new character*
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
7970
@ Kronus - I hope I am right too ^.^ With not being in the beta and in the -waiting for cata- mode, I've just been stuffing my head with numbers, just trying to understand why the devs would be needing to jump from extreme to extreme. It wasn't untill I starting looking at lvl 80 5-man compared to raid gear (Naxx 25) before the coefficient changes started to make sence.

@ Fackdahorde - Your so facking welcome......... Mages will be in a nice spot throughout Cata, but I would advise making sure you got a Hunter lvled and geared so when you have that want to be topping the Skada/Recount charts again, you can just log over ^.^

---------------------------

Using the same approximation math with going from ~25% AP to ~40%-45% AP creates a simular damage increase to shots as if we went from 5-man gear to raid gear at the start of WotLK.
It something that is needed to be done, especially when it comes to PvP. We know what the health pools are going to be at lvl 85, it is VERY easy to plug in gear stamina numbers and get a result. Health pools are basically set and there is no RNG involved with it. Our shot to shot damage on the other hand are filled with so many variables that actual numbers are not as easy to find. A shot doing 8-10K damage in the available gear all the suddon scaling up to 40K in better iLvl gear all because of a missed RNG number would actually be terrible for Hunters and could then expect to see nerfs which could affect everything we learned up to that point.

The hunter community can be brutal when it comes to nerfs, I really don't think they want to create another BM issue like they did in Wrath. I think they are just trying to get it right now so they can work on improvements later on if needed.

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90 Orc Shaman
12560
Hunter damage may end up being fine after a few tiers of content, and that's good. The problem that isn't being addressed is the fact that to many of us the new mechanics just aren't fun, and have turned into a disaster in PvP. With the current system generating enough focus to work well for all specs at 85 in PvE, it really doesn't seem like Blizzard expects anything but for Fox to fix the Focus issues in PvP. Based on everything I have seen, it clearly doesn't.

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Yeah the last time i played a hunter was back when blood elves were new so all the new changes to the gameplay mechanics seem really interesting to me, my mage here is my portal jockey and good on CC so that's why i got her around. Gonna main my lock as always through Cata but i do love pet classes and core hounds are bamf so i want a hunter, plus all the buff/debuff utility for raiding.
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
7970
Hunter damage may end up being fine after a few tiers of content, and that's good. The problem that isn't being addressed is the fact that to many of us the new mechanics just aren't fun, and have turned into a disaster in PvP. With the current system generating enough focus to work well for all specs at 85 in PvE, it really doesn't seem like Blizzard expects anything but for Fox to fix the Focus issues in PvP. Based on everything I have seen, it clearly doesn't.


The original posting was not intended to reflect or address any issues with PvP. The reason for the posting was to show a reason on why Hunters have seen these huge highs and lows in shot coeffieciants. 4.0.1 was a huge hit to many Hunters and screams of "the sky is falling" was heard throughout Azeroth, myself included for a while.

It was ment to quell the overall concerns as it comes to the PvE Hunters, the ones that have that want to be on the top of the meters. We will be back on top, "pay your dues" and get the gear, you will be rewarded.

The PvP example was used because of the staic numbers in Stamina to health ratios. An issue that would have come from a single shot scaling in an unforseen way would be a disaster to all Hunters.
Hunters PvP focus regen is an entirely seperate concern. Though I can garuntee you that if a single shot were to get out of hand, it will take priority in reworking it over any sort of focus issues.
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Here's my current major problem with hunters. I'm playing with a level 85 on the beta and I'm not seeing anything great or any major pluses to make me think this was a good thing as of right now.

Things could change but it's not always for the better and I hate leaving things up in the air for as long as blizzard is leaving this up in the air. So I have to make a decision soon as to what toon I'll level.
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85 Troll Hunter
3560
The problem that isn't being addressed is the fact that to many of us the new mechanics just aren't fun


Oh really? Would you rather go back to mana as our "resource"? A resource that was practically infinite in a 25 man situation and a rotation that was easy as sin?

Focus may take some time to adapt, and my current dps is a bit less than what I was able to do pre-4.01 but at least when I play my hunter I'm not just sitting there spamming steady shot and using chimera/AS whenever it's off CD.
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90 Orc Shaman
12560
The problem that isn't being addressed is the fact that to many of us the new mechanics just aren't fun


Oh really? Would you rather go back to mana as our "resource"? A resource that was practically infinite in a 25 man situation and a rotation that was easy as sin?

Focus may take some time to adapt, and my current dps is a bit less than what I was able to do pre-4.01 but at least when I play my hunter I'm not just sitting there spamming steady shot and using chimera/AS whenever it's off CD.


You traded Chim -> Aimed -> Steady x 4 for Steady and Arcane spam with the odd random button to press (Unless you spec Surv, then nothing changed). If you find this more stimulating, more power. Many of us don't. I am supportive of the move to Focus for Hunters, as it was moronic that they had Mana from the very beginning. I just don't like the way the specs play, and I am not alone.

This is about more than dps. I'd love to keep playing my Hunter in Cata, but I just don't find the fun in the Steady/Arcane spam. We can't really comment on how Surv plays due on Live due to the Focus regen not being enough to support SS + BA + ES without creating lapses. From what I have seen, Survival plays just fine at 85 with Cobra. I just don't like Survival much, so therefore my personal choice is to move to another class.

Please read Megatf's thread from the Cata forum that highlights the serious issues Hunters have in PvP currently. Hunter mechanics are not currently leading to competitive PvP, even when played by a very good hunter.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27607287387&sid=2000
Edited by Vansmack on 11/12/2010 7:05 PM PST
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95 Night Elf Hunter
10625
Omg... If we don't get some of that blizz lovin when cata comes out, or shortly after; I'm afraid I'll /ragequit all 3 accounts... Then I won't have anything to do... I can see me now... Staring at the screen....
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3 Night Elf Priest
0
The problem that isn't being addressed is the fact that to many of us the new mechanics just aren't fun


Oh really? Would you rather go back to mana as our "resource"? A resource that was practically infinite in a 25 man situation and a rotation that was easy as sin?

Focus may take some time to adapt, and my current dps is a bit less than what I was able to do pre-4.01 but at least when I play my hunter I'm not just sitting there spamming steady shot and using chimera/AS whenever it's off CD.


You traded Chim -> Aimed -> Steady x 4 for Steady and Arcane spam with the odd random button to press (Unless you spec Surv, then nothing changed). If you find this more stimulating, more power. Many of us don't. I am supportive of the move to Focus for Hunters, as it was moronic that they had Mana from the very beginning. I just don't like the way the specs play, and I am not alone.

This is about more than dps. I'd love to keep playing my Hunter in Cata, but I just don't find the fun in the Steady/Arcane spam. We can't really comment on how Surv plays due on Live due to the Focus regen not being enough to support SS + BA + ES without creating lapses. From what I have seen, Survival plays just fine at 85 with Cobra. I just don't like Survival much, so therefore my personal choice is to move to another class.

Please read Megatf's thread from the Cata forum that highlights the serious issues Hunters have in PvP currently. Hunter mechanics are not currently leading to competitive PvP, even when played by a very good hunter.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27607287387&sid=2000


I have no idea why people are saying cata rotation is any harder than wotlk rotation. It's not people.. You can actually screw up your cata rotation and be better off than you would if you had screwed up your wotlk rotation. That's how forgiving it is.

If you are speaking from a MM pov how is steadyx2-chimera-steadyx2-arcanex2-steadyx2-chimera ect ect any harder than steadyx4-chimera-aimed? It's so boring now you can use a cast sequence macro and get away with it and do about the same dps. You couldn't do that in wotlk. Thank you Wild Quiver, auto shot and pet damage being your top 3 damaging items.
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80 Night Elf Hunter
2220
It will get better as we get gear made for the changes. I am sure we will get the appropriate stat ratings we need by the time we start getting lvl 85 blues. Blizz will tweak as needed, after all that is why all classes had changes made to the talent system and why Mastery was introduced (to make balance fixes easier and faster). I am sure with such a new system they are still figuring some numbers out. Every time we get expansions that change a mechanic or adds new skills/talents for any mmo, there are always balance issues initially. For this game Hunters always seem to undergo a lot of changes, Cata is obviously no different. Cata has more changes for our class than BC and WotLK. Right now we are in that phase where everything is still being ironed out and we are nervous about the new mechanics and what it means for our class. We will eventually get past this phase and game play will at last be normal again.
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85 Tauren Hunter
6200
Generally speaking, I am someone who says let's see how it all falls out at 85. I would say the game is balanced around 85 at this point. However, from what I understand, hunters are not satisified even at 85. It doesn't seem to be working there. The dps seems lackluster. I don't think there was any necessity to lower the dps on our key shots, Chimera and Explosive Shot. Maybe it will all work out in the end, I dunno. However, I don't see it right now.
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3 Night Elf Priest
0
Generally speaking, I am someone who says let's see how it all falls out at 85. I would say the game is balanced around 85 at this point. However, from what I understand, hunters are not satisified even at 85. It doesn't seem to be working there. The dps seems lackluster. I don't think there was any necessity to lower the dps on our key shots, Chimera and Explosive Shot. Maybe it will all work out in the end, I dunno. However, I don't see it right now.


Survival is ok. It got a nerf recently but a well played hunter can get top 5-8. It's definitely not on the same level as Warlocks, Mages, Warriors, and Boomkins.

MM isn't played in its current state of suckitude

BM is below survival. This is with the new 372 gear.
Edited by Alssa on 11/18/2010 6:16 PM PST
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83 Orc Hunter
3790
I have no idea why people are saying cata rotation is any harder than wotlk rotation. It's not people.. You can actually screw up your cata rotation and be better off than you would if you had screwed up your wotlk rotation. That's how forgiving it is.

If you are speaking from a MM pov how is steadyx2-chimera-steadyx2-arcanex2-steadyx2-chimera ect ect any harder than steadyx4-chimera-aimed? It's so boring now you can use a cast sequence macro and get away with it and do about the same dps. You couldn't do that in wotlk. Thank you Wild Quiver, auto shot and pet damage being your top 3 damaging items.

Very few hunters are complaining about PvE. We're fine there, sure we didn't get buffed quite as much as some other classes but we're still competitive and that's really all that matters.

PvP on the other hand is a whole different ball of wax, and this is where many of us have some concerns. The whole idea of switching to focus is fine, and it's really not hard to adapt to. The problems in PvP are:

1) Lack of focus regeneration. A hunter that stands still to get off a few SS to regen is, most of the time, a dead hunter. Relying on SS to regen is a bad mechanic because it demands that we actually hit something with that cast shot in order to regen, and that we stand still to do so. Against vanished/bubbled/otherwise-immune opponents, we have no way to regen focus other than run around and wait for it to slowly tick upward.

This needs to be addressed, at the very least by tweaking how much we regen passively as well as per SS, and possibly also by considering other mechanics to regen focus (perhaps 2 or 3 focus per auto-shot would be a start?).

Waiting for AotF at 83 is not a solution. It may fix the problem from 83+, but that sends the very clear message that Bliz does not care if hunters are viable in PvP before 83 (whether or not that is the message they want to send, that is certainly the message that's received). Yes, I realize that balance below the level cap is not a high priority, and that's understandable, but there's a big difference between slight damage/survivability imbalance, and simply lacking a core class mechanic that is required to make sub-cap PvP reasonably practical.


2) Against a DoT-heavy opponent, we are quite simply toast. We have zero defenses against DoTs. We lack the large health pools to absorb them, we lack any kind of baseline self-heal (no, Chimera doesn't count), and we lack any means to cleanse ourselves of even a single DoT. If we had any one of the above benefits, it would change things dramatically. As it stands, a priest or lock can simply DoT us up and either stand and laugh, or run away, knowing either way that we're as good as dead.

Of course, the only DoTs we have a good chance of surviving is from... other hunters. Imagine that.

Edited by Qonos on 11/18/2010 6:22 PM PST
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95 Night Elf Hunter
10625
I don't know if I can even stand playing my toon in this condition long enough to get to 85...
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