Please reconsider raid wall version 2

85 Blood Elf Priest
11700
In case you haven't noticed, every healer has an infinite-target AE heal that's very powerful if you can get everyone to stand in the same spot. Disc's is significantly stronger in that it doesn't diminish past 6 targets and scales with the incoming damage, but also has a significantly longer cooldown. So stacking discs and rotating barriers won't trivialize AE damage vs. a 'normal' comp, because synchronized efflo/sanc/radiance/healing rain on top of the limited-target AE heals that those specs bring won't be all that inferior (and in fact might frequently be superior depending on the nature of the damage) to a single barrier.


You are comparing apples to oranges here. The efflo/sanc/radiance/healing rain are infinite healing targets, but not infinite healing. Powerword barrier is infinite targets for infinite damage.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
11700
Namely, the OP wants to play Holy/Shadow and not be forced to play Holy/Disc because Disc will be superior on any fights requiring Power Word: Barrier.


and disc will still be inferior on any fight not requiring pwb? this isn't the fix to disc, but it's not a bad change.


The thing is, disc doesn't have to worthless on every other fight for this to be OP. This ability is OP in it's own right, regardless of who has it. Assuming the numbers get balanced properly, disc is shaping up very nicely after the most recent prayer of healing mechanic change and the nerfing of aoe healing by other specs. I still don't know that it's the spec for me, but I would prefer if I was able to use my offspec as I see fit and not be forced to have a spec or hurt my guild/raid.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
11700

Zaroua from Premonition raised this issue at the start of the Beta testing, all raid cooldowns have to go. Just look at Aura Mastery and Divine Sacrifice and how they were abused throughought the entire Wrath expansion, entire boss strats where designed around these cooldowns, you had to have them in your raid to make the strat work.


Mana matters? So we have to have a resto shaman so we can get more mana?

Mana matters, so you are going to take issue with dps that take too much damage? How can you not take issue with something that lowers all damage by 30% and can be used during the periods of high damage?

I guess my point is, something either matters or it doesn't.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
In case you haven't noticed, every healer has an infinite-target AE heal that's very powerful if you can get everyone to stand in the same spot. Disc's is significantly stronger in that it doesn't diminish past 6 targets and scales with the incoming damage, but also has a significantly longer cooldown. So stacking discs and rotating barriers won't trivialize AE damage vs. a 'normal' comp, because synchronized efflo/sanc/radiance/healing rain on top of the limited-target AE heals that those specs bring won't be all that inferior (and in fact might frequently be superior depending on the nature of the damage) to a single barrier.


You are comparing apples to oranges here. The efflo/sanc/radiance/healing rain are infinite healing targets, but not infinite healing. Powerword barrier is infinite targets for infinite damage.
Just because it's infinite doesn't mean it's inherently better, it depends on how much the spell actually absorbs. PW:B's power is directly proportional to the ratio of the damage a boss pushes out in a 10 second window to the damage the boss puts out in the 110 seconds that it's on cooldown. You can set that at a point where PW:B is completely overpowered so the solution to the fight is to stack disc priests, but you can just as easily set it at a point where PW:B is useful but at the same time not broken.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
11700

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The efflo/sanc/radiance/healing rain are infinite healing targets, but not infinite healing. Powerword barrier is infinite targets for infinite damage.
Just because it's infinite doesn't mean it's inherently better, it depends on how much the spell actually absorbs. PW:B's power is directly proportional to the ratio of the damage a boss pushes out in a 10 second window to the damage the boss puts out in the 110 seconds that it's on cooldown. You can set that at a point where PW:B is completely overpowered so the solution to the fight is to stack disc priests, but you can just as easily set it at a point where PW:B is useful but at the same time not broken.[/quote]

Assuming there are never bursts of damage, you are correct. In any given burst of raid wide damage it is OP. As a result of having said ability, certain encounter types become trivial with, doable with, or impossible without. Examples of this fight from ICC are heroic valks, and the lich king. Any ability that has the ability to alter the game in such a dramatic fashion should not exist.
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90 Night Elf Priest
17030
Priests are just in a precarious position. Because we have two viable specs; one spec will always be superior to another on some fights.

In Wrath, this was partially mitigated because of Weakened Soul; that is, it was not viable to bring multiple Discipline Priests for most fights (Anub'arak aside, Lich King is another topic). So at least you would only have one priest be Discipline/Holy and the other could be Holy/Shadow.

Is there a solution to this problem? I don't think so. This is a problem almost unique to Priests, though I suppose it also (potentially) afflicts Death Knights and Warriors similarly, where they Arms/Fury or Unholy/Frost might be superior in one fight, but the alternate better on the other -- and the person is also required to off-spec tank.

Blizzard won't add Trispec, although it would be lovely if they did.
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90 Draenei Paladin
20450
Just because it's infinite doesn't mean it's inherently better, it depends on how much the spell actually absorbs.


And therein lies the problem.

It goes from situationally terrible to situationally overpowered. How do you think raid healing disc priests will feel in the former?
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85 Human Priest
7735
In case you haven't noticed, every healer has an infinite-target AE heal that's very powerful if you can get everyone to stand in the same spot.


as of Build 13277, it diminishes considerably after 6 targets are within the zone.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
11700
Priests are just in a precarious position. Because we have two viable specs; one spec will always be superior to another on some fights.

In Wrath, this was partially mitigated because of Weakened Soul; that is, it was not viable to bring multiple Discipline Priests for most fights (Anub'arak aside, Lich King is another topic). So at least you would only have one priest be Discipline/Holy and the other could be Holy/Shadow.

Is there a solution to this problem? I don't think so. This is a problem almost unique to Priests, though I suppose it also (potentially) afflicts Death Knights and Warriors similarly, where they Arms/Fury or Unholy/Frost might be superior in one fight, but the alternate better on the other -- and the person is also required to off-spec tank.

Blizzard won't add Trispec, although it would be lovely if they did.


The question isn't whether or not holy is better than disc or vice versa on a particular fight. The question is, is PW:Barrier OP to the point of hindering game play and forcing raid leaders and their raid members from make alternative choices for the sake of this one ability.
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Raid wall hasn't gone away for pallies - this fits pretty well with buffs being homogenised.


raid wall being brought by a healer and being brought by a tank are completely different things.
Explain.

Especially since 1 has the drawback of never moving from it's 10 yard radius starting point and the other is everyone except the tank that gets the mitigation.
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Priests are just in a precarious position. Because we have two viable specs; one spec will always be superior to another on some fights.

In Wrath, this was partially mitigated because of Weakened Soul; that is, it was not viable to bring multiple Discipline Priests for most fights (Anub'arak aside, Lich King is another topic). So at least you would only have one priest be Discipline/Holy and the other could be Holy/Shadow.

Is there a solution to this problem? I don't think so. This is a problem almost unique to Priests, though I suppose it also (potentially) afflicts Death Knights and Warriors similarly, where they Arms/Fury or Unholy/Frost might be superior in one fight, but the alternate better on the other -- and the person is also required to off-spec tank.

Blizzard won't add Trispec, although it would be lovely if they did.


The question isn't whether or not holy is better than disc or vice versa on a particular fight. The question is, is PW:Barrier OP to the point of hindering game play and forcing raid leaders and their raid members from make alternative choices for the sake of this one ability.
PW:Barrier is a 10 second bubble in a set spot (which is fairly small) for a healer spec that has the worst AoE healing output, and the worst direct healing output as well.

They are the one heal spec that does not have a bonus to heals (outside of the small bonus of the extra spellpwoer from INT), and has no talents to increase AoE healing output.

A 2.5% reduction in AoE heals needed over 2 minutes (in a non-burst situation), with a bonus being that in a burst situation you need to heal 30% less for that 10 seconds, while healing for 15+% worse for the entire fight, seems like a decent trade off, and a caveat that would cause any raid leader thinking they would be stacking Disc Priests an idiot. You would need 6 of them to counteract the deficit that they have in their direct heals and any fight with a "don't stand next to friends" mechanic pushes this "OP" CD into uselessness.

The mountains are over there, these here are molehills.
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90 Troll Priest
13280
How about we just make it so that there is only 1 healing class in this game so that none of the healers can complain about each other having some toy that they don't have? Everything always comes down to, "But you might be better than me on this one fight with your class, and that's just not fair." I personally want an ideal world when in a 25man all 5 healing specs are what are brought to the raid. I liked how each healer had their own niche and role to play. It's just getting to the point where I have 4 healers currently at 80 and at 85 what is going to be the point playing more than one if they are all the exact same class?

Oh and I posted on my disc priest so in before people flaming "well you're disc and so ofcourse you would like this spell being "OP"." Would you prefer I posted on my druid or shaman or pally?
Edited by Cynthesis on 11/13/2010 12:00 PM PST
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80 Tauren Druid
3860
PW:Barrier is a 10 second bubble in a set spot (which is fairly small) for a healer spec that has the worst AoE healing output, and the worst direct healing output as well.

They are the one heal spec that does not have a bonus to heals (outside of the small bonus of the extra spellpwoer from INT), and has no talents to increase AoE healing output.

A 2.5% reduction in AoE heals needed over 2 minutes (in a non-burst situation), with a bonus being that in a burst situation you need to heal 30% less for that 10 seconds, while healing for 15+% worse for the entire fight, seems like a decent trade off, and a caveat that would cause any raid leader thinking they would be stacking Disc Priests an idiot. You would need 6 of them to counteract the deficit that they have in their direct heals and any fight with a "don't stand next to friends" mechanic pushes this "OP" CD into uselessness.

The mountains are over there, these here are molehills.


This right here sums it up =)
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85 Blood Elf Priest
11700
PW:Barrier is a 10 second bubble in a set spot (which is fairly small) for a healer spec that has the worst AoE healing output, and the worst direct healing output as well.

They are the one heal spec that does not have a bonus to heals (outside of the small bonus of the extra spellpwoer from INT), and has no talents to increase AoE healing output.

A 2.5% reduction in AoE heals needed over 2 minutes (in a non-burst situation), with a bonus being that in a burst situation you need to heal 30% less for that 10 seconds, while healing for 15+% worse for the entire fight, seems like a decent trade off, and a caveat that would cause any raid leader thinking they would be stacking Disc Priests an idiot. You would need 6 of them to counteract the deficit that they have in their direct heals and any fight with a "don't stand next to friends" mechanic pushes this "OP" CD into uselessness.

The mountains are over there, these here are molehills.


Priests have two heal specs, as such they can spec into both the gimmick CD as well as a real healer spec as needed.

Secondly, having one really OP spell doesn't make a bad spec tolerable. It makes it brought for fights where this spell shine, ie anything with large bursts and then left behind for everything else.

Any spec that relies on one spell to be brought to a raid needs to be reevaluated, this isn't burning crusade and that zeppelin has sailed. If you believe that disc is a really horrible healer, and it's sole purpose in life is a 2.5% damage reduction, you might want to find a different thread to post in as there are bigger elephants in the room.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
16175
The raid wall type of ability isn't inherently bad, just the ability to get more of them the more you have of X class/spec.

Heroism/bloodlust was bad in TBC because you got another one for every shaman you had and it encouraged stacking.

It was much better in wrath, though still kind of annoying for ten mans because it was brought by one class.

In Cata, you'd basically have to try to not have access to heroism/bloodlust in a raid.

Raid walls could be the same way. They would just need to be normalized. If holy paladins, disc priests, and prot paladins could all do a raid wall with a debuff that prevented you from benefiting from more than one in say, 2 minutes (which would be the cooldown of all the abilities), it'd be fine.

Though having what is essentially a raid buff as your end talent would kind of suck though. There would have to be some shuffling/changes so that power word barrier wasn't the end talent if they did this.
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