Why Valkyrie raised Forsakens side with...

80 Gnome Mage
2465
That seems to be a metaphysical hell reserved for people who've committed acts of grieveous wrong, like Arthas and undead Sylvanas. Sylvanas' first death was described in the Arthas novel as being very pleasant.


Both deaths describe a 'black void of nothingness'. The only difference is that in the novel Slyive describes a warm sensation flowing through her. We dont know what she felt at all during her second death, just what she saw which matches the imagery of her first death right on.

And considering her new position as leader of the Forsaken she might have wanted to come back to life more the second time around then the first, hm?
Edited by Liuv on 11/11/2010 4:56 PM PST
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100 Human Mage
13020
That seems to be a metaphysical hell reserved for people who've committed acts of grieveous wrong, like Arthas and undead Sylvanas. Sylvanas' first death was described in the Arthas novel as being very pleasant.


I was kind of under the impression that it was more...ya'know...oblivion. The complete and utter annihilation of the self. Do not pass Go, do not reincarnate, do not linger as a ghost, do not collect 200 gold pieces.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
12355

I was kind of under the impression that it was more...ya'know...oblivion. The complete and utter annihilation of the self. Do not pass Go, do not reincarnate, do not linger as a ghost, do not collect 200 gold pieces.


No Rez Sickness for you!
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100 Tauren Druid
10135
That seems to be a metaphysical hell reserved for people who've committed acts of grieveous wrong, like Arthas and undead Sylvanas. Sylvanas' first death was described in the Arthas novel as being very pleasant.


Both deaths describe a 'black void of nothingness'. The only difference is that in the novel Slyive describes a warm sensation flowing through her. We dont know what she felt at all during her second death, just what she saw.

And considering her new position as leader of the Forsaken she might have wanted to come back to life more the second time around then the first, hm?


Apparently a "warm feeling" is "very pleasant." Makes me wonder why more people don't pee their pants more often.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5735
Well when the Naaru intercede to aid that Crusader(Who should have a statue dedicated to him, not Fordring) in Icecrown they suggest he's going to a paradise.
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80 Undead Warlock
2540
We dont know what she felt at all during her second death

I'm pretty sure she said it was cold.
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80 Gnome Mage
2465
We dont know what she felt at all during her second death

I'm pretty sure she said it was cold.


High Warlord Cromush says: Fix her... FIX HER!
Agatha says: We are bound to her, sisters...
Arthura says: It will destroy us, sister...
Daschla says: It is our sacred duty. The pact was sealed, the bargain made...
Arthura says: Then let it be done.
The group of val'kyr resurrects Sylvanas, sacrificing themselves in the process.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I saw... only darkness.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: And as I drifted towards nothingness, a brilliant light appeared, then another, and another... My dear val'kyr.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I know now - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that the val'kyr are our future.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: We will never stop fighting for Lordaeron. Never...
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100 Tauren Druid
10135
Well when the Naaru intercede to aid that Crusader(Who should have a statue dedicated to him, not Fordring) in Icecrown they suggest he's going to a paradise.


Aye, but he's nor your normal, run-of-the-mill soldier. He may have been given some special treatment on account of his service to the Light. He may not have, too. Just sayin'!
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80 Undead Warlock
2540
We dont know what she felt at all during her second death

I'm pretty sure she said it was cold.


High Warlord Cromush says: Fix her... FIX HER!
Agatha says: We are bound to her, sisters...
Arthura says: It will destroy us, sister...
Daschla says: It is our sacred duty. The pact was sealed, the bargain made...
Arthura says: Then let it be done.
The group of val'kyr resurrects Sylvanas, sacrificing themselves in the process.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I saw... only darkness.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: And as I drifted towards nothingness, a brilliant light appeared, then another, and another... My dear val'kyr.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I know now - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that the val'kyr are our future.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: We will never stop fighting for Lordaeron. Never...

Guess I was wrong.
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100 Orc Warrior
21825
Valkyr charm Forsaken after they're raised, at least on the battlefield. It's not permanent, but should explain why a soldier that died 10 seconds ago would suddenly turn on his or her own people.

Afterward, they're free to do whatever. Most Forsaken are actually pretty welcoming of new arrivals. If they start up trouble they're either killed outright or sent to Sylvanas's reconditioning room. If they just up and leave, well, they just up and leave. However, before making a bunch of high-handed speeches about what you would do if you become a zombie, you need to remember the following:

-You no longer feel emotion. Any love for your family, any joy you had with your friends, any swelling nationalism doesn't exist anymore.

-Your senses are greatly diminished or gone entirely. You are colorblind and see in grayscale. You no longer have a sense of taste or smell. Your sense of touch is very rudimentary.

-No one in the Alliance will welcome you back. In their eyes you're nothing but a monster now. Period. There is no argument against this. The best you can hope for is to join a neutral organization like the Argent Dawn.

Now, if you were in that position, what would you do? What's the logical, practical thing to do? If life no longer had any sensation, if you were a complete outcast to the rest of the world. How much hate could you really have against the Forsaken that killed you when the only other alternative was to stay dead? Isn't something better than nothing?

Bonus fact: All Forsaken characters created after Cataclysm are valkyr-raised Forsaken. Come up with your own reasons why. Bottom line, stop making sweeping generalizations from a position of assumed moral superiority and consider what people as individuals would do.

______________
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2348118/
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4515
-No one in the Alliance will welcome you back. In their eyes you're nothing but a monster now. Period. There is no argument against this. The best you can hope for is to join a neutral organization like the Argent Dawn.
Oh like Death Knights?
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100 Human Paladin
19145
I think we're misunderstanding one another. Being a Forsaken, undeath in general, is considered a gift by some. I never said being forced to do things against their will was viewed as a gift.


So those Forsaken hold a grudge over the "free will" thing, not the "killed" or "reanimated" things.

Perhaps Arthas would have been more successful had he turned his subjects into zombies, but didn't exert mental control over them...
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80 Gnome Mage
2465
-No one in the Alliance will welcome you back. In their eyes you're nothing but a monster now. Period. There is no argument against this. The best you can hope for is to join a neutral organization like the Argent Dawn.


Oh like Death Knights?


Do Forsaken have a letter from Tirion Fording to back them up?
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Bonus fact: All Forsaken characters created after Cataclysm are valkyr-raised Forsaken. Come up with your own reasons why. Bottom line, stop making sweeping generalizations from a position of assumed moral superiority and consider what people as individuals would do.


But they don't act like individuals. Apart from a few quests in Tirisfal, all these newly raised Forsaken -immediately- swear allegience to the Forsaken. Not only that, but they start fighting their former allies.

It's one thing to join the Forsaken because you think you have nowhere else to go; it's another to not only join them, but also immediately turn against your friends.
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100 Tauren Druid
10135
I think we're misunderstanding one another. Being a Forsaken, undeath in general, is considered a gift by some. I never said being forced to do things against their will was viewed as a gift.


So those Forsaken hold a grudge over the "free will" thing, not the "killed" or "reanimated" things.

Perhaps Arthas would have been more successful had he turned his subjects into zombies, but didn't exert mental control over them...


I'll be honest and say I don't know that there aren't ANY Forsaken that are upset about being killed, but isn't the fact that they were forced to kill those they once loved and destroy their homelands one of the driving factors? Once they get their wills back, they still remembered all those things, from what I understand.

I'm writing 3 finals right now or I would go try and hunt something down that says it. Again, I'm not saying NO Forsaken is angry at being killed, just suggesting that I don't think that's the reason for the majority of the ones we do actually know.

And I'm entirely open to being wrong. :)
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80 Gnome Mage
2465
Bonus fact: All Forsaken characters created after Cataclysm are valkyr-raised Forsaken. Come up with your own reasons why. Bottom line, stop making sweeping generalizations from a position of assumed moral superiority and consider what people as individuals would do.


But they don't act like individuals. Apart from a few quests in Tirisfal, all these newly raised Forsaken -immediately- swear allegience to the Forsaken. Not only that, but they start fighting their former allies.

It's one thing to join the Forsaken because you think you have nowhere else to go; it's another to not only join them, but also immediately turn against your friends.


Sadly this is a video game and what dont always have time to talk with each new Forsaken and have a soul searching conversation about why they should fight against their old allies when you still need to kill twenty more to complete your quest. Keeping the gameplay from stagnating, slowing down too much and whatno takes priority over things like this working 100% realistically in lore.
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Sadly this is a video game and what dont always have time to talk with each new Forsaken and have a soul searching conversation about why they should fight against their old allies when you still need to kill twenty more to complete your quest. Keeping the gameplay from stagnating, slowing down too much and whatno takes priority over things like this working 100% realistically in lore.


That's not an answer.

"Oh, there's a reason for it; we just never see it nor see any evidence or reference regarding it!"
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100 Tauren Druid
10135
Bonus fact: All Forsaken characters created after Cataclysm are valkyr-raised Forsaken. Come up with your own reasons why. Bottom line, stop making sweeping generalizations from a position of assumed moral superiority and consider what people as individuals would do.


But they don't act like individuals. Apart from a few quests in Tirisfal, all these newly raised Forsaken -immediately- swear allegience to the Forsaken. Not only that, but they start fighting their former allies.

It's one thing to join the Forsaken because you think you have nowhere else to go; it's another to not only join them, but also immediately turn against your friends.



... So you'd be fine if each and every NPC you raised sat down, mid-quest, and had a 10-15 minute monologue weighing the various pros and cons of being Forsaken, then deciding to become a Forsaken and THEN killing their former friends?

Something tells me that would ruin the flow of the quest.
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80 Gnome Mage
2465
Sadly this is a video game and what dont always have time to talk with each new Forsaken and have a soul searching conversation about why they should fight against their old allies when you still need to kill twenty more to complete your quest. Keeping the gameplay from stagnating, slowing down too much and whatno takes priority over things like this working 100% realistically in lore.


That's not an answer.

"Oh, there's a reason for it; we just never see it nor see any evidence or reference regarding it!"


Yes its an answer. Its just not the one you want. In order to get a better answer we'd need more lore on the situation then we currently have since we've poured over almost everything regarding the New Forsaken at this point and havent come close to a better answer.

So, until something else comes up I'm counting it mostly to either game mechanics or most new Forsaken going through very similar revelations after their rebirth. Take your pick :P
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