The Demise of Rated 25 vs 25 BG's

100 Blood Elf Death Knight
7635

After much though and deliberation, we have decided to remove the 25 v 25 bracket from rated battlegrounds. We felt that overall, it created too many logistical issues for players and that in the long run, most players would just skip that week in the rotation.

Thanks for all the feedback on this issue, we are listening.


Here we go again....are you really sure you put a lot of thought into this?

The Back Story:

Rated BG's can also provide, over and above PvP points, Guild Experience points if the team meets the 80% guild member requirement.

Apparently the Rated BG system will rotate on a weekly basis and was to offer 10 man BG's one week, 15 man the 2nd week and 25 man in the 3rd week and rinse and repeat.

As a result of QQ by smaller guilds, who were upset they wouldn't be able to meet the 80% guild membership requirement and thus not earn Guild Experience points, Blizzard has decided to eliminate the 25 vs 25 bracket all together.

So, let's see how this contradicts Blizzard's own philosophy. First, they have repeatedly stated that the justification for 10 man PVE content dropping the same loot as 25 man is so players can choose the format they prefer to play regardless of reward. But apparently those that prefer larger guilds and epic PvP battles don't deserve that same consideration.

Blizzard has also justified the Guild reward system by saying its not a game breaker which puts non-guilded players at a distinct disadvantage and the fact that larger guilds will earn rewards faster is justifiable.

But, the fact that larger guilds would have earned more PvP related Guild Experience points apparently isn't acceptable.

So now, because of a non game breaking reward (guild experience) a complete bracket of PvP, which many prefer, is being totally eliminated to accommodate smaller guilds. Next thing you know they won't bother producing 25 man Raids anymore either because that is the logical extension of this rationalization.

There are a myriad of more thoughtful ways this issue could have been handled. As others have suggested, elsewhere, the "rotation" system of Rated BG's was the real issue. Instead of eliminating the 25 vs 25 bracket they could have eliminated the rotation and allowed groups to join the BG size (10, 15, 25) they preferred to play. There are other ways around the issue as well.

But being logical and consistent are not strong suits of Blizzard.

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85 Orc Warlock
5930
The continuing trend to keep bending and breaking their will, all because smaller groups MIGHT feel left out, is driving me up the wall.

Couldn't we have just let this one hit Live servers before jumping to conclusions? It seems we can predict with certainty that smaller groups will have trouble with something, but when the larger groups claim they might have problems with changes, nobody wants to listen.

It could have improved community and cohesion within each server as these smaller groups are incentivized into getting together with other smaller groups once every 3 weeks. Maybe they'd start enjoying the larger group stuff and the group experiences and social interaction improve for everyone across the board.

Breeding a world where people want to stick with their tiny little group, while simultaneously achieving everything, and ignoring everyone else kind of takes away from the social element of an MMO.
Edited by Bibdy on 11/12/2010 5:45 AM PST
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100 Troll Mage
10510
Yeah, the decision was a little polar.

The rotation was the problem. It forced people to play 25 v 25.
All they had to do was eliminate the rotation.

The 25 v 25 BGs had so much potential to be extremely fun and a fresh, unique game experience.

Maybe they'll change their minds before the launch date.
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85 Undead Warlock
5000
As you mentioned it, the rotation is the true problem. However it would have been even worse to keep the weekly rotation AND the 25v25 bracket in the weekly rotation. Not because of the guild experience issue but because it would force players to completely reorganize their teams every week.

I would love them to keep rated 25v25 BGs and simply get rid of the rotation, allowing players to focus on their favorite BGs just like we can focus on our favorite arena brackets. I certainly won't focus on 25v25 but I don't see why we shouldn't keep it as an option.
Edited by Tabarnackz on 11/12/2010 6:04 AM PST
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8 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I think the point that the OP is missing here is that this is not so much a battering down of 25 man content. It is more a change to facilitate what you MUST do in order participate in the game at a certain level.

By that I mean, 10 or 25 man raiding is STILL raiding... you may have a favorite, but you can STILL do a 10 man if the 25 man just isn't working out. And since the gear will be the same, you are not FORCED to do 25 man for better gear if 10 man is your favorite.

But rated BGs are different in that every 3 weeks you would have been FORCED to play 25 man in order to accure that better gear at a competetive rate.

Me personally... I could care less either way since my favorite part of BGs is the chaotic nature of the PUG, which I will not be able to do for ratings. So (depending upon how severe the gear differences are between upper and lower tier gear are) I am probably retired from PvP. It's all "wait and see" I guess.
Edited by Lastlaugh on 11/12/2010 6:21 AM PST
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80 Draenei Shaman
2550
Here's the problem with losing 25v25. You've now reduced your possible BGs for Rated BGs by at least 2. AV is completely out, Isle of Conquest is probably out as well. You're left with the same busted crap that has a less than epic feel to it. WSG? Really? That's not a Battle Ground, it's a Football game.

I had high hopes for the return of the epic battle field feel of Vanilla World PvP, or even just a really good AV turtle. Alas it's not to be. Blizzard promised us epic battles and we get football.
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There is a lot of interest in Rated BGs, but let's be honest... I don't think there will be many guilds that could field 25 man teams.

So, what happens? All the other guilds are not going to risk their rating by taking trade chat pugs to fill out a 25 man team, and would just bypass that week.

Placating the minority, and having most people pass on RBG 1/3rd of the time, doesn't really make much sense, and Bliz made the right choice in my opinion.

C
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90 Human Priest
6825
Much like the topic creator, I fail to see the logic behind the complete removal of this bracket. I was looking forward to rated battle grounds and 25-man rated battle grounds in particular.

There are already numerous rewards for small-scale organized team play. Why can't you also reward large-scale organized team play? Don't you think you have already scaled down the scope of the game enough?


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80 Draenei Shaman
2550
Here's the problem with losing 25v25. You've now reduced your possible BGs for Rated BGs by at least 2. AV is completely out, Isle of Conquest is probably out as well. You're left with the same busted crap that has a less than epic feel to it. WSG? Really? That's not a Battle Ground, it's a Football game.

I had high hopes for the return of the epic battle field feel of Vanilla World PvP, or even just a really good AV turtle. Alas it's not to be. Blizzard promised us epic battles and we get football.


If you've never experienced an epic Warsong Gulch or Arathi Basin, I feel sorry for you :(


Epic WSG is Nebraska Vs Colorado. Epic AV is Omaha Beach. Sorry if I point out the difference in epic-ness here.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660
As a Rated BG leader, I approve of this change.
Edited by Thogden on 11/12/2010 7:13 AM PST
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Blizz says nothing about guilds in their announcement, for my part I wasn't even considering guild-formed rated BGs teams. Guild leveling is going to be relatively easy, Rated BGs are not critical to leveling your guild. If they were, the PVE qq would be catastrophic.

We do not need formal teams for rated BGs why does everyone keep treating them as if we do?

Have a extended circle of friends who like and are good at pvp. Set a few days a week when Rated BGs will be running. Do them until everyone is good to go, rotate in more for those that leave.

Most of the good pvpers on my server all know each other and wouldn't think twice about forming BGs of any size. The plan was going to be run smaller multiple groups then link up for the big ones . . . and Fark Guild exp.

I now think that blizz is going to eliminate 25 man raids on the PVE side too. They are just phasing it in. They now obviously think that WoW players are too stupid, lazy and/or disorganized to do anything in large groups. I call bullcrap to that. Ask any Suramar Old timer about a Ripcord AV, then try to tell me 40 people can't work together.

Nevermind that Suramar horde mounted a more than a raid and a half for city raids last week. Nevermind that the list for calendar invites for my premades NOW is longer than my arm. I like the smaller BGs don't get me wrong, but I was really, really looking forward to controlled epic chaos 25 man BGs would bring.

Finally, this is world of WARcraft, not arenacraft, not skirmishcraft, WARcraft. The entire franchise started from epic battles between massive armies. It is the biggest draw for me. I signed on to take part in those epic battles.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660
Personally, I feel it is good for a few different reasons:

1) The 25 mans require a PVE component to kill the end bosses if you choose to do so.

2) The 25 mans are far more susceptible to turtling and/or intentionally dragging a game out.

3) Weeks where the 25 mans are running, there will be slower queues due to the propensity for turtling combined with less overall games running due to the games requiring more players, plus many smaller guilds/teams not able to field enough players to queue.

4) As the scope of the battle grows larger, the raid leader has less control. Right now in 10 and 15 man premades, I can control every single one of my people. Need a healer at the mine? I know who is close and can send them. Need DPS on a flag carrier? I know who is close and can send them, etc, etc.

That control is mostly taken away in 25 mans because the map is so large, and there are so many more people to control.

What most people don't understand is that playing in a rated premade in Cata is going to be EXACTLY like playing in the arena. The teams who win the most are going to be highly coordinated and orchestrated. Everything will be brought down to reaction time and CC; every global and movement will be carefully planned.

I get the feeling that many BG heroes think they are going to queue up with their teams and zerg down wins, but it's not going to happen. If you try to do so, you will be picked apart and embarrassed.

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What most people don't understand is that playing in a rated premade in Cata is going to be EXACTLY like playing in the arena. The teams who win the most are going to be highly coordinated and orchestrated. Everything will be brought down to reaction time and CC; every global and movement will be carefully planned.

I get the feeling that many BG heroes think they are going to queue up with their teams and zerg down wins, but it's not going to happen. If you try to do so, you will be picked apart and embarrassed.


I don't want this to denegrate into a BG Heroes vs. Arena Superstar discussion, but many "Arena Masters" I run into in BGs are out of position of where they should be.

Everything will not be brought down to precise, planned use of globals. Don't expect stationary targets where you can apply arena strats against the better teams, m'friend.

C
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660
What most people don't understand is that playing in a rated premade in Cata is going to be EXACTLY like playing in the arena. The teams who win the most are going to be highly coordinated and orchestrated. Everything will be brought down to reaction time and CC; every global and movement will be carefully planned.

I get the feeling that many BG heroes think they are going to queue up with their teams and zerg down wins, but it's not going to happen. If you try to do so, you will be picked apart and embarrassed.


I don't want this to denegrate into a BG Heroes vs. Arena Superstar discussion, but many "Arena Masters" I run into in BGs are out of position of where they should be.

Everything will not be brought down to precise, planned use of globals. Don't expect stationary targets where you can apply arena strats against the better teams, m'friend.

C


If you think my guys are coming into your base to recover our flag and not plan every global, every CC, every target swap, etc...

...you are sadly mistaken.

If you think my guys are coming into your node to cap it and not plan every global, every CC, every target swap, etc...

...you are sadly mistaken.

Most BG fights are going to be 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 or close to it.

People have these delusions about it being anything different and I have no idea where they come from. Perhaps they are accustomed to the way things work in the pug BG's currently, but it's not going to be the case with premades v premade.

Where is all this zerg v zerg fighting going to be? You think I am going to send 10 people to fight your 10 people at a node in the opening of an AB? No, I am going to cap everything around you because you grossly misplaced your people.

You see what I am getting at?
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85 Goblin Hunter
4030
It was a wise move to remove the 25v25 rated battlegrounds, I really do not see much participation in that bracket due to its high personnel requirement.
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80 Draenei Shaman
2550

If you think my guys are coming into your base to recover our flag and not plan every global, every CC, every target swap, etc...

...you are sadly mistaken.

If you think my guys are coming into your node to cap it and not plan every global, every CC, every target swap, etc...

...you are sadly mistaken.

Most BG fights are going to be 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 or close to it.

People have these delusions about it being anything different and I have no idea where they come from. Perhaps they are accustomed to the way things work in the pug BG's currently, but it's not going to be the case with premades v premade.

Where is all this zerg v zerg fighting going to be? You think I am going to send 10 people to fight your 10 people at a node in the opening of an AB? No, I am going to cap everything around you because you grossly misplaced your people.

You see what I am getting at?


Yes, you're saying you want Special Forces levels of coordination and execution. Hey, more power to yea, you're probably right that'll work, but what dropping 25v25 robs you of is a Battle of Mogadishu experience where a horde of the untrained can overwhelm a highly skilled smaller force. You're taking the BATTLE out of Battlegrounds. I don't want 10v10 arenas on huge maps. I want a BATTLEground, with all the chaos, confusion and suffering that is associated with that idea.

Mark my words: If rated BGs become 10v10 Arenas they'll fail to capture that middle player Blizz was looking to entice. Rated BGs had the potential to capture 'casual' PvPers in semi-organized conflict. Without the scale to make things truly chaotic, to make the use of company-size-tactics, things will be no better than Arenas.
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