The Demise of Rated 25 vs 25 BG's

90 Dwarf Priest
8000
When you put as a result of QQ in your posts, you're probably not posting from a very objective place. Considering your character has only played 70 battle grounds, I do find it hilarious however.

I don't think having guild experience is the main reason why people are having a problem with 25s. It's more likely the logistical issue of having to need 25 people on and having that conflict with who gets in and who doesn't.

If you have a guild big enough to do 10 or 15 mans, and suddenly you need 25 the next week, it means you'll have to recruit outside your guild for that week only. You'll see the same problem that Karazhan drama caused at BC. People running two or three groups of kharazan, and then you had the a group, the b group, and if lucky the c group.

The C group gets bitter they can't beat the bosses, and even when they did start doing 25s, they were more likely to be the least geared, and be least invited to the 25s, which would cause them to be even less likely to be invited. Which just started an ugly chain.

See with 25 mans being exclusive to each week. Its not like a 25 or 10 man difference for raids. It's literally, am I going to be bging this week or not. We can't suddenly play 10 man AV and still get our points that way. If we don't have the people, it just means people will be skipping altogether. Though people wouldn't be getting guild experience, that would be the least of their worries.

Larger guilds will get experience faster, that's just going to be a fact the way the system is set up lol. I don't think you'll need to worry about pvp experience hampering down on that. Sounds to me more like someone who just wants to race to the top level and insecure about other people that don't affect them. It's not like you wouldn't be able to do, gasp twice as many 10 man bgs as a 10 man guild and get experience that way? Or maybe thats just bizzaro logic.

Personally, I'm glad that they removed 25 mans. Having to need to field that many people would be a pain. It would be nice however if they could have 25 rated bgs once in a blue moon for special events that grant special pvp rewards. Just like its fun raiding faction cities once in awhile, I think it'd be fun to do rated BGs too. But it would be a drain to have to be required to do them every three weeks though.
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What most people don't understand is that playing in a rated premade in Cata is going to be EXACTLY like playing in the arena. The teams who win the most are going to be highly coordinated and orchestrated. Everything will be brought down to reaction time and CC; every global and movement will be carefully planned.

I get the feeling that many BG heroes think they are going to queue up with their teams and zerg down wins, but it's not going to happen. If you try to do so, you will be picked apart and embarrassed.


I don't want this to denegrate into a BG Heroes vs. Arena Superstar discussion, but many "Arena Masters" I run into in BGs are out of position of where they should be.

Everything will not be brought down to precise, planned use of globals. Don't expect stationary targets where you can apply arena strats against the better teams, m'friend.

C


If you think my guys are coming into your base to recover our flag and not plan every global, every CC, every target swap, etc...

...you are sadly mistaken.

If you think my guys are coming into your node to cap it and not plan every global, every CC, every target swap, etc...

...you are sadly mistaken.

Most BG fights are going to be 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 or close to it.

People have these delusions about it being anything different and I have no idea where they come from. Perhaps they are accustomed to the way things work in the pug BG's currently, but it's not going to be the case with premades v premade.

Where is all this zerg v zerg fighting going to be? You think I am going to send 10 people to fight your 10 people at a node in the opening of an AB? No, I am going to cap everything around you because you grossly misplaced your people.

You see what I am getting at?


How do you plan for every global etc. when you don't know when someone is rezzing? If the enemy team has stealthies on site? You going to keep track of all your teams CDs AND the enemy team's too? You account for the fact that the FC may not even be there when you hit the room? You account for half the node defense running off and letting you cap a node you are after to tag one or two you left (relatively) lightly guarded?

I get the feeling that many Arena heroes think they are going to queue up with their teams and micro down a couple of fights, then be confused as to why they are still in the BG.

Your half right, there won't be traditional BG zergs. But you are woefully wrong about most fights being even numbers.

Smart tacticians are never going to match you man for man unless they already know they can beat you that way. They are going to create mismatches and then exploit them. Think of it as macro version of strategy as opposed to micro strategy.

Part of why "BG heroe's" prefer BGs to Arena was that they like the macro aspects of BG strategy to the hyper-micro strats of arena. This is also why the loss of the big BGs hits hard. Looking at it though the Macro/Micro filter:

Micro - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Macro
Arena - - - - - -10-15 man BGs - - - - 25(40) man BGS/WG/TB

Now it could be argued that Blizz has simply chosen the middle ground for a host of reasons. I can respect that, but as a guy who loves, and was really looking forward to the big battles, it stings to lose the part I really like. Winning a fight feels nice, winning a big battle feels epic.

Hyper-micro strats are going to get you kills, which means if your macro strategy is solid you will win. If you focus solely on micro strats you are going to own the hks and lose the BG. If you ignore basic micro strats a great macro strat will be just as useless.

You see what I am getting at?
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90 Dwarf Priest
8000
Winning a big fight feels epic when it is actually epic. Trying so hard to defend a tower, only to find that the horde killed vandaar anyways makes me cry.

The 40 mans had very little maccro in them. It's just zerg drek, or zerg hangar. Most BG heroes most likely wouldn't care about listening to the commands of a leader to actually put maccro strategy to fruition.


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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660
Your half right, there won't be traditional BG zergs. But you are woefully wrong about most fights being even numbers.

Smart tacticians are never going to match you man for man unless they already know they can beat you that way. They are going to create mismatches and then exploit them. Think of it as macro version of strategy as opposed to micro strategy.

Part of why "BG heroe's" prefer BGs to Arena was that they like the macro aspects of BG strategy to the hyper-micro strats of arena. This is also why the loss of the big BGs hits hard. Looking at it though the Macro/Micro filter:

Micro - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Macro
Arena - - - - - -10-15 man BGs - - - - 25(40) man BGS/WG/TB

Now it could be argued that Blizz has simply chosen the middle ground for a host of reasons. I can respect that, but as a guy who loves, and was really looking forward to the big battles, it stings to lose the part I really like. Winning a fight feels nice, winning a big battle feels epic.

Hyper-micro strats are going to get you kills, which means if your macro strategy is solid you will win. If you focus solely on micro strats you are going to own the hks and lose the BG. If you ignore basic micro strats a great macro strat will be just as useless.

You see what I am getting at?


No, because I am an arena player who also currently leads premade BG's.

If I can kill your 5 players at a node with my 3 players through better micro, I can easily defeat your team.
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100 Troll Mage
9905
What most people don't understand is that playing in a rated premade in Cata is going to be EXACTLY like playing in the arena. The teams who win the most are going to be highly coordinated and orchestrated. Everything will be brought down to reaction time and CC; every global and movement will be carefully planned.

I get the feeling that many BG heroes think they are going to queue up with their teams and zerg down wins, but it's not going to happen. If you try to do so, you will be picked apart and embarrassed.


I don't want this to denegrate into a BG Heroes vs. Arena Superstar discussion, but many "Arena Masters" I run into in BGs are out of position of where they should be.

Everything will not be brought down to precise, planned use of globals. Don't expect stationary targets where you can apply arena strats against the better teams, m'friend.

C


If you think my guys are coming into your base to recover our flag and not plan every global, every CC, every target swap, etc...

...you are sadly mistaken.

If you think my guys are coming into your node to cap it and not plan every global, every CC, every target swap, etc...

...you are sadly mistaken.

Most BG fights are going to be 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 or close to it.

People have these delusions about it being anything different and I have no idea where they come from. Perhaps they are accustomed to the way things work in the pug BG's currently, but it's not going to be the case with premades v premade.

Where is all this zerg v zerg fighting going to be? You think I am going to send 10 people to fight your 10 people at a node in the opening of an AB? No, I am going to cap everything around you because you grossly misplaced your people.

You see what I am getting at?


How do you plan for every global etc. when you don't know when someone is rezzing? If the enemy team has stealthies on site? You going to keep track of all your teams CDs AND the enemy team's too? You account for the fact that the FC may not even be there when you hit the room? You account for half the node defense running off and letting you cap a node you are after to tag one or two you left (relatively) lightly guarded?

I get the feeling that many Arena heroes think they are going to queue up with their teams and micro down a couple of fights, then be confused as to why they are still in the BG.

Your half right, there won't be traditional BG zergs. But you are woefully wrong about most fights being even numbers.

Smart tacticians are never going to match you man for man unless they already know they can beat you that way. They are going to create mismatches and then exploit them. Think of it as macro version of strategy as opposed to micro strategy.

Part of why "BG heroe's" prefer BGs to Arena was that they like the macro aspects of BG strategy to the hyper-micro strats of arena. This is also why the loss of the big BGs hits hard. Looking at it though the Macro/Micro filter:

Micro - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Macro
Arena - - - - - -10-15 man BGs - - - - 25(40) man BGS/WG/TB

Now it could be argued that Blizz has simply chosen the middle ground for a host of reasons. I can respect that, but as a guy who loves, and was really looking forward to the big battles, it stings to lose the part I really like. Winning a fight feels nice, winning a big battle feels epic.

Hyper-micro strats are going to get you kills, which means if your macro strategy is solid you will win. If you focus solely on micro strats you are going to own the hks and lose the BG. If you ignore basic micro strats a great macro strat will be just as useless.

You see what I am getting at?


I think AB in particular relies more on Macro strat than Micro. Getting 8 uninterupted seconds to cap a flag against a coordinated premade defending that node will be extremely difficult.

You can micro down those defenders for 10 minutes and never get more than 3 seconds on that flag because of the rez advantage. It's going to rely so much on outmaneuvering and yes sometimes just zerging down a node fast enough to get time to cap and re-distribute your forces again before the opponents outmaneuver your zerg.

The situation will always be different and rapidly dymanic and it's going to rely so well on an adaptable macro strategy.
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100 Troll Mage
9905
These embedded quotes can get ridiculous....
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No, because I am an arena player who also currently leads premade BG's.

If I can kill your 5 players at a node with my 3 players through better micro, I can easily defeat your team.


I am a BG player who currently leads Alliance pugs and see my games through, win or loss, and I score a 63% win ratio.

You sit at 52%.

Your example at the node? Good teams will disrupt node cap attempts and rely on rez timers to keep their node alive and defended, even against a tough attack.

You want to bring your threesome against the five? Looks like you just wasted time. Play smarter and ditch the sand box mentality.

C
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No, because I am an arena player who also currently leads premade BG's.

If I can kill your 5 players at a node with my 3 players through better micro, I can easily defeat your team.


Eh . . . enjoy the opening of the season, because that is the only time that is going to work.

You are making the same mistake you accuse others of. . . You won't be fighting random BG scrubs. You aren't going to be killing 5 equally skilled players with 3.

That means you are almost always going to have to bring more than they have to capture a node, barring a hard counter comp if you can set it up.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660
No, because I am an arena player who also currently leads premade BG's.

If I can kill your 5 players at a node with my 3 players through better micro, I can easily defeat your team.


I am a BG player who currently leads Alliance pugs and see my games through, win or loss, and I score a 63% win ratio.

You sit at 52%.

Your example at the node? Good teams will disrupt node cap attempts and rely on rez timers to keep their node alive and defended, even against a tough attack.

You want to bring your threesome against the five? Looks like you just wasted time. Play smarter and ditch the sand box mentality.

C


This isn't the only character I have led premades on.

I have been leading premades since Vanilla.
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These embedded quotes can get ridiculous....


Ya, I starting trimming them. And good points.

Only thing I'll add to that is that the node based BGs are also very chaotic. If you try to form up a perfect team for every node attack you are going to be wasting a lot of time.

AB for example: I have groups 1-3 assigned to do something at the start, most I do is make sure the heals don't get left guarding nodes not under fire. I'll try to designate guard teams but they almost always get jumbled up based on who dies where. Then I rely on my teammates to do what they do best.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660
[quote]No, because I am an arena player who also currently leads premade BG's.

If I can kill your 5 players at a node with my 3 players through better micro, I can easily defeat your team.


I am a BG player who currently leads Alliance pugs and see my games through, win or loss, and I score a 63% win ratio.

You sit at 52%.

Your example at the node? Good teams will disrupt node cap attempts and rely on rez timers to keep their node alive and defended, even against a tough attack.

You want to bring your threesome against the five? Looks like you just wasted time. Play smarter and ditch the sand box mentality.

C


This isn't the only character I have led premades on.

I have been leading premades since Vanilla.

Your assumptions are cure though : )
Edited by Thogden on 11/12/2010 1:57 PM PST
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I am a BG player who currently leads Alliance pugs and see my games through, win or loss, and I score a 63% win ratio.

You sit at 52%.

Your example at the node? Good teams will disrupt node cap attempts and rely on rez timers to keep their node alive and defended, even against a tough attack.

You want to bring your threesome against the five? Looks like you just wasted time. Play smarter and ditch the sand box mentality.

C


This isn't the only character I have led premades on.

I have been leading premades since Vanilla.


I'd be happy to review the stats page of the other characters you play on.

:)

C
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660
I am a BG player who currently leads Alliance pugs and see my games through, win or loss, and I score a 63% win ratio.

You sit at 52%.

Your example at the node? Good teams will disrupt node cap attempts and rely on rez timers to keep their node alive and defended, even against a tough attack.

You want to bring your threesome against the five? Looks like you just wasted time. Play smarter and ditch the sand box mentality.

C


This isn't the only character I have led premades on.

I have been leading premades since Vanilla.


I'd be happy to review the stats page of the other characters you play on.

:)

C


I mainly lead WSG and AB premades, from now all the way back to Vanilla.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-statistics.xml?r=Mal%27Ganis&cn=Xaeranth&gn=Legendary+Trap

70% W/L overall on my Hunter

46 wins out of 52 WSG's played.
40 wins out of 55 AB's.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-statistics.xml?r=Spirestone&cn=Xvk

110 wins of 140 WSG games played on my Shaman.
103 wins of 148 AB games.

159 wins out of 198 WSG wins on this guy.

These all include losses incurred while pugging my daily.

I can't even remember the last time we lost a premade, even versus other premades.

My Pally has my 100k kill acheivement.
My first Shaman has conqueror, my Druid is 6k rep away from being another conqueror.

I'm willing to go toe to toe with any of you forum/Bg heroes on whatever you like.

Edit: and feel free to pick apart whichever characters you like, I don't play them anymore. I've played this Pally exclusively since he hit 80 about 6 months ago.
Edited by Thogden on 11/12/2010 2:11 PM PST
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I'd be happy to review the stats page of the other characters you play on.

:)

C



Eh, not good way to tell, I BG way too much, my premades generally roll anything we come up against but i only run them on the weekends, then pug a lot during the week. he could have the same dilemma.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
20555
i might be singular here in my feeling about it, but IOC and AV arnt very skillful in there execution. theres a few strategies and counter strategies for each BG, but there layout and design play more against those maps being possible for proper competitive play.

im more than happy with blizzs intent to use the smaller BGs as there rated BG focus. there is almost an infinite amount of strategies involved with wsg and AB compared to the previous 2 mentioned.

also with 25V25, you ran the risk of players not being present any given week and ruining your chances at gaining ranking playing them.

to be perfectly honesty id be most happy if they kept rated BGs soley to AB, WSG, and EOTS.

SOTA is a steaming mess, and not real pvp. someone best termed it as PVG. player verses gate. it shouldnt be included in the rotation either. that BG is a mess.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
4045
25 vs 25 sounded like it was going to be way too scattered. imagine dying and ending up all over the place, and ultimately ending up turtle fights.
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85 Night Elf Rogue
4995
Even though I don't mind the idea of doing 25 vs 25 bgs, yeah the way it was set up just sounded bad. It forced you to do 25 mans for a week or sit out of rated bg. Some people have compared it to raiding, but if you don't want to do 25 mans in raiding you don't have to and you still get all the same gear. I bet if the raid rotated every week between 10 and 25 man and you could only do that size of raid each week pve players would have a boycott.

I would also say that the risk of bringing pugs to RBGs is also greater due to your rewards being tied to a win %, nobody is gonna want to risk tanking their rating.
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90 Human Priest
12085
The larger point I think the OP was making is that slowly, over time, the massive part of this particular MMO is being removed or significantly scaled back. I think "Modestly Multi-player Online" about sums it up.

Raid sizes shrinking, rated BG's shrinking before they even go live, etc.

They just removed the only reason I was looking forward to rated BG's. They may as well have announced that they were just enlarging arenas because shrinking the BG's feels about the same.

When you're talking about battlegrounds like Arathi Basin, you're essentially talking about three 5 man arena teams at different nodes, with some micro/macro strat. I was really hoping, as a number of people have mentioned, for larger and more chaotic battles.

/sigh

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