The Demise of Rated 25 vs 25 BG's

85 Blood Elf Paladin
8135
I didn't see a blue response saying that guild participation was the reason for cutting out the 25 man rated BG.

I think it was a culmination of things... there are many people (like myself) who prefer smaller content, for instance. I know myself, guild or not, would have skipped the 25m weeks for sure.

It's too much like raiding... too much like a job... (Lets PVP Tue, Wed, Thur from 5 to 8!) No thanks!

I'm glad Blizzard did listen.
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90 Orc Hunter
5850
I didn't see a blue response saying that guild participation was the reason for cutting out the 25 man rated BG.

I think it was a culmination of things... there are many people (like myself) who prefer smaller content, for instance. I know myself, guild or not, would have skipped the 25m weeks for sure.

It's too much like raiding... too much like a job... (Lets PVP Tue, Wed, Thur from 5 to 8!) No thanks!

I'm glad Blizzard did listen.


Who exactly are they listening to? Let me open your eyes a little...

For me, that lack of evidence for this change leads me to believe that there's something else that they don't want us to know. Created too many logistical issues? Give me a break Blizz.

If it's just because they think people would skip the rotation, then fine, as someone else has stated, remove it from the rotation. Don't just KILL IT.

Also, observe how they are trying to turn the post around with a positive ending:

"Thanks for all the feedback on this issue, we are listening."

Who exactly are you listening to? What feedback? Can we see it? What group of "elite" players they're getting their feedback from? If you ask me, the elite and feedback they should base themselves on is right here, on the forums. It's the perfect example of Beta vs. Live realms; For any player that agrees with this change, there's probably 10 or more players that disagree.

Bull!%#% Blizzard. Is it because you have too many other things on their plate right now (e.g.: Balancing)? OK, TELL US THAT.

Had they said that they haven't looked at all options yet due to this being a lower priority, it would have come across a lot better than a hypocritical post.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660
Who exactly are you listening to? What feedback? Can we see it? What group of "elite" players they're getting their feedback from? If you ask me, the elite and feedback they should base themselves on is right here, on the forums.


Yes, because this game wouldn't totally be in the crapper in about a month if Blizzard balanced around what they read "right here, on the forums"?

/rolls eyes
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8135
So I read your post, Rezwalker, and I don't understand what I was supposed to get from it... I don't understand how my eyes are closed...

Blizzard responded to some feedback, we can agree on that, right? Or do you think they're just mean and made the change to piss off a few people?

A lot of someone's expressed a dislike for 25's rated BG's and they responded by removing it. Why is it so difficult to understand that your opinion isn't the only one that counts? I'm not even saying mine counts. Had they left 25 man's in, I wouldn't have complained; I just wouldn't have Q'd for them.
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8 Blood Elf Paladin
0


This isn't the only character I have led premades on.

I have been leading premades since Vanilla.




While I do consider leading premades since Vanilla as respectible... I think you are going to be in for a bit of a surprise. You are actually going to be facing OTHER premades nearly all of the time, which is something new for premades to encounter. Premade versus premade battles have been pretty rare for a long time (but sure... they still happen once in a while).

Up to this point in WoWs history, it has actually been hard to lose if you got into a pre-made. I personally have only lost once in a premade on any toon that I have ever taken to a BG... ever. Because simple (even basic) co-ordination will win a BG everytime against a PUG... this will not be the case in rateds however.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660


This isn't the only character I have led premades on.

I have been leading premades since Vanilla.




While I do consider leading premades since Vanilla as respectible... I think you are going to be in for a bit of a surprise. You are actually going to be facing OTHER premades nearly all of the time, which is something new for premades to encounter. Premade versus premade battles have been pretty rare for a long time (but sure... they still happen once in a while).

Up to this point in WoWs history, it has actually been hard to lose if you got into a pre-made. I personally have only lost once in a premade on any toon that I have ever taken to a BG... ever. Because simple (even basic) co-ordination will win a BG everytime against a PUG... this will not be the case in rateds however.


When I was on the Nightfall Battlegroup in Vanilla, we would face premades all the time. Kel'Thuzad had some great teams, Doomhammer had one great one and all the rest were trash.

We currently queue premades in AB and WSG and still face many premades, maybe 2-3 a night over a few hours of queuing.

We don't lose.

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90 Orc Hunter
5850
So I read your post, Rezwalker, and I don't understand what I was supposed to get from it... I don't understand how my eyes are closed...

Blizzard responded to some feedback, we can agree on that, right? Or do you think they're just mean and made the change to piss off a few people?

A lot of someone's expressed a dislike for 25's rated BG's and they responded by removing it. Why is it so difficult to understand that your opinion isn't the only one that counts? I'm not even saying mine counts. Had they left 25 man's in, I wouldn't have complained; I just wouldn't have Q'd for them.


Define "a lot of people" ? Or are you going with what Blizzard said? Again, you are too naive.

It is evident that the majority of the people (not only on this forum), do not approve of this change. Moreover, Blizzard has not provided with enough information about the matter, which affects a LOT of people. They wanted a resurgence of PvP and Battlegrounds, remember? This is not a matter that should be dismissed lightly, like they have done.

I guess the message I'm trying to get across is: Don't believe everything Blizzard throws at you.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660
The WoW Forums:

Blizz: "Hey guys, good news! We are implementing Rated BG's; the only issue is that you have to queue with a full team"

WoW Forums: "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE BLIZZARD HATES US I WANNA PLAY WITH FRIENDS NOT SOME RANDOM STRANGERS RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

Blizz: "Ok, ok, ok, we get it. So how about this, we will remove the 25 mans, so you people who don't want to seek out a larger group to play with can more easily run Rated BG's"?

WoW Forums: "OMG 25 IS ONLY SLIGHTLY MORE THAN 15 IT CAN EASILY BE PUGGED OMG OMG OMG YOU HAVE RUINED MY LIFE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

/boggle
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85 Night Elf Druid
14460
I am also sad to see 25man rated BGs go, I think they would have been alot of fun and a group of people isn't even giving them a chance as an option.
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8 Blood Elf Paladin
0


This isn't the only character I have led premades on.

I have been leading premades since Vanilla.




While I do consider leading premades since Vanilla as respectible... I think you are going to be in for a bit of a surprise. You are actually going to be facing OTHER premades nearly all of the time, which is something new for premades to encounter. Premade versus premade battles have been pretty rare for a long time (but sure... they still happen once in a while).

Up to this point in WoWs history, it has actually been hard to lose if you got into a pre-made. I personally have only lost once in a premade on any toon that I have ever taken to a BG... ever. Because simple (even basic) co-ordination will win a BG everytime against a PUG... this will not be the case in rateds however.


When I was on the Nightfall Battlegroup in Vanilla, we would face premades all the time. Kel'Thuzad had some great teams, Doomhammer had one great one and all the rest were trash.

We currently queue premades in AB and WSG and still face many premades, maybe 2-3 a night over a few hours of queuing.

We don't lose.




And who knows... you may actually continue winning. But since (in theory) rated BGs are going to be rate-matched, I suspect that losing will become a reasonably frequent friend. This is even more likely than ever due to the new consolidated battlegroups.

The head on collision of large scale skilled players is bound to produce some interesting results. I am actually expecting some completely new BG strats to arise from all of this.

I am really looking forward to what general strats win out and settle the old arguments (like defending or not defending and moving as a group in WSG).

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85 Dwarf Paladin
4660


This isn't the only character I have led premades on.

I have been leading premades since Vanilla.




While I do consider leading premades since Vanilla as respectible... I think you are going to be in for a bit of a surprise. You are actually going to be facing OTHER premades nearly all of the time, which is something new for premades to encounter. Premade versus premade battles have been pretty rare for a long time (but sure... they still happen once in a while).

Up to this point in WoWs history, it has actually been hard to lose if you got into a pre-made. I personally have only lost once in a premade on any toon that I have ever taken to a BG... ever. Because simple (even basic) co-ordination will win a BG everytime against a PUG... this will not be the case in rateds however.


When I was on the Nightfall Battlegroup in Vanilla, we would face premades all the time. Kel'Thuzad had some great teams, Doomhammer had one great one and all the rest were trash.

We currently queue premades in AB and WSG and still face many premades, maybe 2-3 a night over a few hours of queuing.

We don't lose.




And who knows... you may actually continue winning. But since (in theory) rated BGs are going to be rate-matched, I suspect that losing will become a reasonably frequent friend. This is even more likely than ever due to the new consolidated battlegroups.

The head on collision of large scale skilled players is bound to produce some interesting results. I am actually expecting some completely new BG strats to arise from all of this.

I am really looking forward to what general strats win out and settle the old arguments (like defending or not defending and moving as a group in WSG).


The collision in the beginning of, say, WSG serves a few purposes:

1) Wipe the other team so you can push them into their GY and run flags past them.
2) At least kill their healers so the people going to get the flag don't have any support and can easily be killed by your rezzers.

I suspect that just as in the old premade honor farming days, there will be zero point in dragging out a game which you know you are going to lose. Shock and Awe'ing your opponents down and demoralizing them in the very beginning of a game will, at the very least, cause them to have to shift their strat; best case, they will sit in their GY and let you win so they can draw a team they can beat.

As for whether defending is worth it or not, I feel that only in a very small amount of circumstances is it worth it. Obviously if you are in a "we got the last cap, let's turtle out the last few minutes for a win" situation, then yes. If I am about to cap and you know they have someone going for your flag, I will send a rezzer to defend/slow them.

Other than those situations, having someone sit in your flagroom while you are controlling the field (which you should be), it's wasted manpower/productivity.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8135
So I read your post, Rezwalker, and I don't understand what I was supposed to get from it... I don't understand how my eyes are closed...

Blizzard responded to some feedback, we can agree on that, right? Or do you think they're just mean and made the change to piss off a few people?

A lot of someone's expressed a dislike for 25's rated BG's and they responded by removing it. Why is it so difficult to understand that your opinion isn't the only one that counts? I'm not even saying mine counts. Had they left 25 man's in, I wouldn't have complained; I just wouldn't have Q'd for them.


Define "a lot of people" ? Or are you going with what Blizzard said? Again, you are too naive.

It is evident that the majority of the people (not only on this forum), do not approve of this change. Moreover, Blizzard has not provided with enough information about the matter, which affects a LOT of people. They wanted a resurgence of PvP and Battlegrounds, remember? This is not a matter that should be dismissed lightly, like they have done.

I guess the message I'm trying to get across is: Don't believe everything Blizzard throws at you.


Seriously? I believe Blizzard, you don't. We're exactly on opposite sides of the argument, yet I'm naive? Flip a coin, heads you're right, tails I'm right. We're both naive I guess...

The only difference is I don't see a reason why'd they'd deceive us. Maybe you'd like to tell us why Blizzard is out to get us?

/facepalm
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80 Troll Rogue
9245

So, let's see how this contradicts Blizzard's own philosophy. First, they have repeatedly stated that the justification for 10 man PVE content dropping the same loot as 25 man is so players can choose the format they prefer to play regardless of reward. But apparently those that prefer larger guilds and epic PvP battles don't deserve that same consideration.




Too bad, unlike in raiding, a guild run rated bgs any day of the week as many times as they wanted, and just play with multiple teams, whereas a 25 man raiding guild doesnt have the ability to complete the same raid multiple times or over multiple groups.

Youre comparing apples and oranges. Good job making yourself look dumb.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
9270
did you people really want to play SOTA as the rated for the week?

no? stop complaining.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
9055
The number of active guilds that would want to raid 25v25 BGs is probably very, very low. Outside of guilds, getting a regular 25-man BG group would have been an absurd demand and terribly unfair to the vast majority of people. As such, the bracket wasn't worth its existence.

The change was made for very clear and straightforward reasons. Blizzard means Rated BGs to provide a different avenue for competitive PVP. No more, nor less. Any imaginations of "epic group PVP" somewhere lurking within the overall intent of the feature are mistaken at best.
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
12995
Removing 25 man BGs from the rated BG list is just one step closer to BGs being Arenas 2.0. Having people need to adjust for larger groups and completely different formats is part of doing battlegrounds. Having only 10 and 15s is removing around 30% of the battleground content, that is not a trivial amount of content.

I was hoping rated battlegrounds was gonna be doing ALL of the battlegrounds and being rated on how good you were in all of them. Not cherry picking battlegrounds that were too "big".

Also, one of the reasons PvP guilds are small atm, is because of blizzards harsh restrictions on a raid going into normal BGs. It makes sense that there will be some growing pains of the small pvp guilds blizzard has pushed in the past to a larger pvp guild that has no reason to exist atm. Does that mean people dont want to pvp in larger guilds? No, just that its impossible to do now and people are scared of change.
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