Revenge.

81 Dwarf Rogue
2670
With Rune Strike being changed to be usable all the time in Blood Presence, warriors will be the only tank left with a reactive ability based on avoidance.

Personally, i love reactive abilities, but the problem with revenge in regards to a few tank equality issues that have been going around is this:

We can't use it while we are not tanking, and considering it is an incredibly cheap ability that accounts for a large portion of our total damage (given that we are actually being attacked and are able to avoid said attacks, more on that later), i would consider a huge penalty for when we are not actively tanking.

Some may rebut that the vengeance we get from vigilance (assuming of course that the other tank is still actively taking damage) will help offset this, although not fully since all tanks suffer from dealing less damage when not tanking (though arguably, even disregarding revenge, warriors are affected the most). Since i am not in beta, i can't know for sure, so this would be a question i would pose to a tank that is in beta.

The other thing with Revenge is that it's also not usable against mobs that spam a spell as their main attack, again i am not in beta, so i don't know how often this crops up or even if it does at all, but when it does happen on live, it sucks eggs.

So my suggestion to help solve some of the issues with revenge is to firstly allow Revenge to proc from direct damage magical attacks, and to replace the taunt refresh part (which will be sad to see go, but it must be admitted that it is quite an oddity) with the ability to allow your viliganced target to proc Revenge for you (either under the normal circumstances, or simply when he/she takes direct damage).
85 Human Paladin
11980
To paraphrase Ghostcrawler:

Why is being the only one of something a bad thing?
81 Dwarf Rogue
2670
Maybe we should disregard half the threads in this forum then?

Joking aside, is that not in regard to utility, rather than something fundamental like how much damage is dealt or taken, and again like i said at the start, i only bring this up because i have seen discussion about off tank dps brought up, but nothing about revenge, which is obviously a major part of the issue.
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
Rune Strike was changed because it was their highest threat ability with the ability to go for long streaks of unprocs. Revenge is not our hardest hitting ability, and it is almost always lit up by the time it comes off cooldown.

And no, that quote applies to more than just utility.
81 Dwarf Rogue
2670
Fair enough, though my mention of Rune Strike was probably not needed since Death Coil can be used in it's stead when not avoiding.

Revenge may not be the hardest hitting, but like in the main post, it is cheap, and accounts for a significant amount of overall damage (20% give or take even when it is not cleaving). Being the only one to experience such a great drop in dps when not tanking is definately something bad, this is not simply a case of different, but a case of less.
Revenge is supposed to be used as a sort of upgrade of devastate.
It deals more damage, but it still has the same chance to refresh Shield Slam.
Anyways, our rotation is just
Shield Slam -> stuff -> repeat

edit: mooclane has a good point. If dodging/parrying inside that 5sec cooldown didn't count, it might complicate things a teeny tiny bit. (ie add 1-2 seconds to the "cooldown")
Edited by Jaime on 11/12/2010 7:13 PM PST
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
we're the only one who gets vengenace when we're not tanking. That's more useful than revenge. Our 'burst' ability is also on a much shorter CD.

edit: mooclane has a good point. If dodging/parrying inside that 5sec cooldown didn't count, it might complicate things a teeny tiny bit. (ie add 1-2 seconds to the "cooldown")


It's dodge/parry/block, which is why we're much less likely to go on a string of "can't hit this button".
Edited by Mooclane on 11/12/2010 7:14 PM PST
81 Dwarf Rogue
2670
Yes, we gain vengeance, but is it enough to make up for the loss?

When a warrior is not avoiding hits, he loses his enrage, he loses hold the line (10% crit) and revenge.

A paladin loses reckoning.

And every tank loses a bit of resource generation (though for a paladin or druid, it arguably does not matter).
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
I dunno, does ~19k AP sound like a good trade off to you?
81 Dwarf Rogue
2670
It does, but can we reach that and maintain it while gaining it at 20% of the normal rate?, seems unlikely. I also posed the same question in my original post to any beta warriors out there (whether or not vengeance from vigilance is significant enough to offset the loss from not tanking).
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
Why do we need Vig to build vengeance? The only situation this matters is a tank swap... we'll be able to build our own Vengeance stacks.
81 Dwarf Rogue
2670
My understanding is the vengeance decays constantly and this rate of decay increases as you approach the maximum value, it is not simply refreshed at its current value when you take damage like other stacking buffs.
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
I believe it's something like each hit is a separate instance of Vengeance, lasting for about 20 seconds, and dodges/parries retard the rate of decay. But even if it's 9k AP instead of 18, it's still better than revenge.
80 Blood Elf Paladin
5015
Revenge isn't intrinsically tied to a Warrior's resource system.

Revenge can proc on a block, which significantly increases the change that it will be usable by the time it comes off cooldown.

Revenge has a cooldown, which significantly decreases the amount of avoidance/block you need within a given frame of time to maximize its use.

Warriors were already given a means by which to mitigate the amount of combat power they lost when they're not actively tanking a target (Sentinel and Vigilance)
85 Tauren Warrior
8810

Warriors were already given a means by which to mitigate the amount of combat power they lost when they're not actively tanking a target (Sentinel and Vigilance)


This. Revenge is fine as is.
81 Dwarf Rogue
2670
Ok, i may have to concede on the offtank dps thing. After doing some quick math it turns out you will gain attack power up to a maximum of 20% of the dps your viliganced target is taking, taking aproximately 1 minute to reach that point (or rather, close enough) and 15 seconds to reach half that, if anyone was interested.
90 Tauren Druid
0
Runestrike != revenge
Runestrike = Heroics strike. It's a resource dump.
81 Dwarf Rogue
2670
For the record, i wasn't comparing them as a threat tool, rather a tool that i could use when not tanking (read: dps).
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