How would you fix Priest Broken PvP state?

Lets not talk about numbers, By numbers i mean: Healing throuthput and mana consumption is guaranted to be decently balanced across healers come cata..

Asuming numbers are balanced, how are healing priest broken in PvP?

1) Priest PvP tanking is broken on this new cataclysm model, survivability and mana concerns:

- Draining our Mana by staying on us from start to end, forcing us to only instant cast (no mobility).

- We lost several tanking tools with the 31 points talent convertion.

- Melee in general got more/better stuns, silences, interrupts.

- We are still the squishiest of all healers, very low survivability.

- Is not fun being completely helpless vs melee @teamgame there are a lot of situations were you must have at least a little of solo viability, babysiting us all day is a liability to our team

2) Losing our niche as "the" offensive healers, Meaning our offensive tools were nerfed (or talents removed) and other healers offensive tools buffed.

Why is the offensive healer niche so important to priest? Honestly, As a team leader,it is the only reason to pick a priest instead of other healer, dispel magic and offensive tools somehow make up for all other inferior aspects.

- All the healers got awesome dps talents, or at least talents that reduce the mana cost of offensive spells, IN addition to their already existant offensive toolset, priest got all the fun offensive/dps talents removed and got very very bad offensive talents

- Offensive actions are too restricted by mana, that literally kills 80% of our offensive spells.

ARENAJUNKIES POST "disc beta state" (need 2400+ to comment)
http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=214833
Disc Duels: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVuJp3aisUQ

FIXING THE PROBLEMS

If a blue reads this post, we are not exaggerating/overreacting, healing priest are indeed in a completely non viable state @85, no one on his right mind will let us stay on their team(i would not take a priest), not to mention it is very unfun an depressing current priest playstyle.
We need mayor changes to be able to compete with other buffed healers and this new cata model.

1) Phantasm needs to be baseline, shadow should get a better version.

2) Evangelism/Archangel are very bad talents for Disc/Holy, in its current state neither PvPers nor PvEers will take them.
- Smite needs to be 1.5 seconds cast and its range increased to 40 yards
- Evangelism buff should last 30 seconds

3) Masochism needs to be tier 1 shadow (without the SW:D part), a tanking caster should not have his mana drained by melee hopelessly sitting on them from start to end

4) "Body and Soul" needs to be tier 2 Discipline.
I know different classes are different and you guys want to keep classes unique, but the complete lack of mobility for the priest class has gone too far, i guess we are fine having a little less than others, but shouldnt be so binary: a lot of mobility tools vs zero.
This will give shadow and disc "A BIT" of so much needed mobility every class have.

CONCLUSION
I hate being the Prophet of Doom, but the priest class is facing its darkest pvp era, which is a shame considering priest are so loveable (2 healing specs?) and cute.

@85 class Strenghts:
- Dispel Magic (all healers got defensive dispel, so this one has weakened)
- Mana Burn 2.5 sec cast time (not used if we tank the entire match, TBC again?)
- << not trying to QQ really but are there any others? compared to other healers >>

@85 class Weaknesses:
- Face Tanking with nerfed tanking tools, while everyone got buffed, required tons of babysiting, and still our teammates cant peel melee off us
- Very little utility compared to what other healers bring
- Very low Survivability
- Zero mobility

I beg fellow priests to comment and provide feedback since the beta priest dont exist apparently, little to no feedback is provided on the beta forums.
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80 Troll Rogue
9245
1) Phantasm needs to be baseline, shadow should get a better version.

2) Evangelism/Archangel are very bad talents for Disc/Holy, in its current state neither PvPers nor PvEers will take them.

- Smite needs to be 1.5 seconds cast and its range increased to 40 yards

- Evangelism buff should last 30 seconds

3) Masochism needs to be tier 1 shadow (without the SW:D part), a tanking caster should not have his mana drained by melee hopelessly sitting on them from start to end

4) "Body and Soul" needs to be tier 2 Discipline.

I know different classes are different and you guys want to keep classes unique, but the complete lack of mobility for the priest class has gone too far, i guess we are fine having a little less than others, but shouldnt be so binary: a lot of mobility tools vs zero.

This will give shadow and disc "A BIT" of so much needed mobility every class have.


1. Agreed completely.

2. Agreed, IMO make evangelism not consume archangel, merge the evangelism and archangel effects into : Evangelism : the mana cost of your spells is reduced by 3% per stack, and the damage of your offensive holy spells and damage over time effects is increased by 2% per stack (up to 5) with mind blast and holy fire generating 2 charges each, charges lasting 30 seconds. Archangel : Only usable at 5 stack, restores 20% total mana and increases spell haste and crit chance by 20% for 20 seconds, 90 sec cd.

3. Agreed, but a more blanket issue is at hand : shadow hard OOMs in pvp no matter what very fast, mainly because dots are way too expensive. SWP should be dropped to 8% base mana, devouring plague 12%, and VT 4%. Mind blast 4%, mind flay 3%. SHD costs no mana. You would still be spending alot : you have no in combat regen. Remove the mana return from shd, its stupid and doesnt work in pvp through shields, which is terrible.

4. Bake this into imp power word shield so its less boring, it would be available to everyone and everyone needs it.

In addition :

Revert the power word barrier change recently. Its either OP in pve or useless. Drop the cd to 1.5 mins, make it reduce damage taken by 15%, heal for roughly 4k / 3 sec at 85, and absorb to 4k - 5k dmg a hit up to 60k dmg, but it can only affect 10 people at a time. Lasts 15 seconds.

Remove grace, remove the "heal reduces duration of weakened soul" talent. Make penance a 8 sec cd that increases healing done to the target by 10% and reduces the duration of weakened soul by 2 sec per tick. Increase the healing per tick by 50% (it needs to be the most powerful disc heal) and increase the mana cost to 20% base mana.

Change the disciple mastery to "Increases the power of absorb effects and increases all healing done to targets affected by weakened soul by 15%", +1.5% per mastery point.

Make prayer of mending in disc cause a healing explosion on up to 6 players within 15 yards of the target for 75% of the amount healed. Each jump reduces this effect by 15%.
Edited by Korvox on 11/14/2010 5:05 PM PST
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80 Troll Rogue
9245
Reintroduce 15% bonus crit on penance somewhere in disc.

Increase atonements rage to 40 yards, reduce healing done to 60% for 2 points, make it reduce smites cast time by .5 sec total in addition to divine fury.

Make holy fire / smite 35 yard range.

Make ALL priests gain 100% of spirit to hit, and 50% mana regen from spirit. All specs would then use spirit, and the spirit mana would help shadows problems, but shadow should only need as much spirit as it takes to have hit cap. In pvp this means a little less mana regen, which is key to shadow having a mana limit.

Make shadow orb consumption restore 5% mana per orb. This replaces the shadow word death mana return : its a clunky mechanic that doesnt work in pvp when shd is the CC breaker.

Also, make shd break sheeps when you have a shield. Its a stupid macro to have to take shield off to death polys.

Reduce the duration of shadow fiend to 8 seconds and the cd to 2 mins base. Reduce the cd of its shadowstep to 3 seconds and give it a 1 sec attack speed. Each attack restores 2% total mana.

Improved mind blast needs its cost reduced to 2 points. Since the shadow orb mechanic is changing as well, make mind blast a 12 sec base cd. Make imp mind blast 2 points, and 2 sec off cd per point. This justifies buffing the base damage and scaling by ~25% to make up for the loss of mastery damage.

Change positions of holy concentration and charka in holy and make holy concentration restore 2% total mana every 12 seconds you preserve a chakra state. In addition, make revelations cause a switch of chakra state to immediately reset the CD of all holy word spells. This adds new dynamics to holy in both pve and pvp that are good balancing acts.

Prayer of healing needs to be smart but 15 yards limited. With the current implementation it is horribly situational.

That really is it, if all this happened priests would be perfect on dec 7. But there is so much work to do, and I would rather have meaningful changes happen rather than band aids like all prayer of healings cause divine aegis. Fix the class at the core.

And merge the 10+ power word shield talents in disc. Talk about a one trick pony tree. Make borrowed time 20% haste. Why was 25% overpowered?

I wouldnt mind seeing soul warding removed but the 3 sec cd remain to remove raid bubbling. Making shields a big deal on targets would allow their buffing without it being overpowered in pvp, where they need to be 17k+ absorbs in pvp for balance.
Edited by Korvox on 11/14/2010 5:07 PM PST
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
The developers are unlikely to redesign the Priest class 3 weeks out from an expansion.
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80 Troll Rogue
9245
Which is bad, considering priests need a major overhaul for pvp viability.
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80 Troll Rogue
9245
Just another day when Kalgan isn't the balance dev.


When he was warriors had mace stun and lifebloom healed for more than it did at lvl 80.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8310
I like how paladins do more damage than priests, have instant cast heals twice as powerful as flash of light and have tons of CC and defensive abilities with infinite mana.

Just another day when Kalgan isn't the balance dev.


Why didn't this post begin with "lmfao"? In fact, there's no "lmfao" in it at all.

On topic, why is it bad that the healer has to be protected by his teammates? That makes killing the healer the goal of otherwise goal-less PvP.
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80 Troll Rogue
9245
On topic, why is it bad that the healer has to be protected by his teammates? That makes killing the healer the goal of otherwise goal-less PvP.


Because healers are not designed around perma-tanking the enemy team. They cant heal like that at 80, through 4 seasons of varying power, they definitely cant at 85 when healing power is significantly reduced compared to damage output, while mana costs go through the roof.

The other healers have means to escape training. Priests do not. That is the divide, and the problem at the root of this conundrum.

They didnt in all of wotlk either : but the offensive pressure and unique dispel system made priests powerful on a crutch, plus strong bubbles.

Now, with healers being more homoginized then ever before, priests need some escape. They also need to make disc not terrible in both raids and pvp, and I tried to address that in my tirade of suggestions.

If training the healer is the only strategy, pvp is broken. The proper pvp system is built around killing an opportune target : but that target will change throughout a group pvp confrontation. That is how pvp is meant to go. Training healers is too prevalent at level 85 because its too easy : instant heals from everyone but paladins and druids are very weak.
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The developers are unlikely to redesign the Priest class 3 weeks out from an expansion.


Well the sooner the better, we all have Druid/Paladin rerolls in order to wait until pvp priest are playable, normaly it takes 6 months of being broken before receiving buffs, that does not mean we should not provide feedback.

A link to the "normal healing forums" about this topic:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27607278841&sid=1
Edited by Asamita on 11/15/2010 12:42 PM PST
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Holy PvP:

Seems good on paper but is not very good in practice, as i said i feel it is one of the most PvE oriented talent trees in the game.

May work on battlegrounds if you stay at 40 yards defensive healing, but all offensive abilities are at 30 yards including chastise, as holy it is very dangerous to get caught in a bad spot, i feel that this playstyle wastes 50% of the priest toolset, and if you are not playing the strenghs of your class, it is a far far better option to bring a better defensive healer like Paladins or Druids.

Strenghts:

- Holy Word: Chastise on short cooldown
- Good Burst Healing
- "Body and Soul" 60% speed for 4 seconds after PW:S + poison dispels, is an awesome mobility talent, however is not enough to kite a melee
- Guardian Spirit is very good

Weaknesses:

- Mana. No Rapture (3% mana after PW:S), No Enlightment (15% increased intellect), holy gets "Holy Concentration" (increased spirit regen by 20% is LOL in PvP gear)

- Chakra is almost unusable on PvP, you have to give up chastise disorient to use the healing chakra

- Lack of tanking talents, you are very very squishy

- Give up Offensive spells, you WONT have mana to sustain, poison dispels, smite, dots, mindblast, self PW:S for the speed, etc

- A silence + stun chain and you are death you dont have Pain Suppresion Glyph
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87 Blood Elf Priest
12610
It all comes back to mobility really. With the melee train all having interrupts in addition to some kind of stun, actually casting in the face of a melee and certainly more than one, is death. And priests cannot get away. Any peeling action you do for a priest would be more effective for a druid/paladin/shaman. And ironically enough all of those classes heal better under direct pressure than priests do.

The overall game is no longer balanced on the ability to 'tank' a dps the way priests did @ 70. However since then we've gotten no major snarebreak/escape skill. Fade breaking snares needs to be a baseline ability, that would be a start at least.
Edited by Jajie on 11/16/2010 10:00 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Priest
17940
Fade breaking stuns needs to be either a Tier 1 shadow talent or some sort of minor or major glyph.

The removal of Holy Reach might be an over-sight on Blizzard. That is, it might be an over-sight they did not bake-in the range increase the talent previously provided.

Atonement being 40 yards is probably a bit too brainless; that said the current 8 yards mechanic sounds good on paper but is downright retarded in practice. Heck, in PvE versus some boss models Atonement does nothing. Maybe 15 yards would be a good compromise.
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85 Dwarf Priest
2480
Bump. OP is right on the money.
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85 Night Elf Druid
5430
It all comes back to mobility really. With the melee train all having interrupts in addition to some kind of stun, actually casting in the face of a melee and certainly more than one, is death. And priests cannot get away. Any peeling action you do for a priest would be more effective for a druid/paladin/shaman. And ironically enough all of those classes heal better under direct pressure than priests do.

The overall game is no longer balanced on the ability to 'tank' a dps the way priests did @ 70. However since then we've gotten no major snarebreak/escape skill. Fade breaking snares needs to be a baseline ability, that would be a start at least.

This plus the suggestion I've seen elsewhere of baking some sort of mobility boost into dispel of PW:S on the priest (not on other targets).
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85 Dwarf Priest
6725
I think the OP is pretty much right. The TL;DR version is basically:

  • Useless mastery vs. offensive dispels

  • No longer the offensive healer (the BIG thing for many priests)

  • Mana inefficiency



The mobility thing is not really an issue for me. Priests got through all of WotLK without good mobility but we were still good because of our synergy with good peeling classes, our own offensive pressure, fear, and players' ability to adapt.

It seemed like Inner Will was going to help with that, but its really just a confusing ability. So I have to trade armor and spellpower to move faster and be more efficient? Why not make it a snare breaker for holy/disc, or turn into something awesome like what Paladins and Shamans are getting rather than something so trade-off-ish.
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83 Tauren Priest
3310
I'm doing way better now in PVP than I ever did in the past. I don't know what all the complaining about besides people not wanting to change their play style to fit the new changes.

Edited by Chêck on 11/18/2010 2:36 PM PST
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