[Feral Druid] Thrash - What is the point?

100 Blood Elf Paladin
13975
/sigh

Someone needs to bite the bullet and do a unified tank dps/threat thread to sort this stuff out, because a much larger part of discussions like this are based on conjecture and specific ability comparisons than we really should be satisfied with. We all still consider DKs to be powerful AoE tanks based on Zarko's AoE threat thread which was like 2 months and 10 beta builds ago. Is it even still true? I suspect so, but I'm a lot less confident in it than I'd like to be.

/not it
Edited by Wrathblood on 11/15/2010 7:48 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
5555
Wrathblood, the fact that we don't have something like that seems to indicate that we still care way more about survival than we do about threat. Our mindset is usually that we do the best we can, but ultimately dps can just back off rather than wiping the raid.
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90 Tauren Druid
0
It really depends on back size too.
If you are running three tanks in a 25m, packs 10mobs or smaller favor tanks with consistent cleaves.

In 10m with 2 tanks, cleave tanks form better at 6 target groups.

The size of the groupings shifts the strengths a fair bit
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85 Night Elf Druid
12205
Thrash OUT of our single target


Sorry fasc. They fell short of this goal. Its the second strongest single target threat button after mangle.


Aww poopie...

No big deal I suppose, with Thrash scaling really well (the DoT) I suppose it makes sense to maintain it, particularly when it is pretty cheap. Swipe no longer factors in our single target rotation now right? The nerf should make it hit about as hard as Lacerate, or less if I'm eyeballing it correctly.
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90 Tauren Druid
0
No big deal I suppose, with Thrash scaling really well (the DoT) I suppose it makes sense to maintain it, particularly when it is pretty cheap. Swipe no longer factors in our single target rotation now right? The nerf should make it hit about as hard as Lacerate, or less if I'm eyeballing it correctly.


At high levels of vengeance it will likely do more threat then lacerate. But I don't think it will be worth it to put it into the single target rotation.

In a situation where you really need to lock something down right away then it might make sense to use it. The thing to remember is that both thrash and swipe do 1.5x damage as threat and scale quite well with AP while lacerate is dmg + base bonus. for threat.

Tl;DR swipe will do more threat then lacerate but probably won't be worth it in the single target rotation when cata goes live.
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
We all still consider DKs to be powerful AoE tanks based on Zarko's AoE threat thread which was like 2 months and 10 beta builds ago. Is it even still true? I suspect so, but I'm a lot less confident in it than I'd like to be.


I actually incorrectly modeled DK rune usage in that one. It's really confusing to do right, in fairness to me.

Wrathblood, the fact that we don't have something like that seems to indicate that we still care way more about survival than we do about threat. Our mindset is usually that we do the best we can, but ultimately dps can just back off rather than wiping the raid.


Yeah. I'm also of the belief that tank damage and such should be judged by encounters and actual data/evidence. I think survivability should be too, but our tools for tracking survivability are so much weaker than our tools for tracking damage.

Ideally, tank survivability should be judged based off empirical evidence. I don't tend to do that because that data is very, very difficult to collect in a scientific manner. The DPS numbers are much easier to collect. Since tank damage never makes that much of a difference, I feel like waiting until the first tier to balance it closer is totally legit.


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85 Human Paladin
5555
Since tank damage never makes that much of a difference, I feel like waiting until the first tier to balance it closer is totally legit.

The larger sample sizes probably help Blizzard quite a bit. Would I be wrong in guessing that things will be much better balanced in 4.1 than in 4.0?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
SWC
11255
The only downside of thrash is getting a bit to close to the cc'd target and "oops, sorry you can't cc him anymore"


not really any different than rend with blood&thunder, or dk diseases. Paladins don't really have an analogue since their only dot is single target.
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85 Draenei Warrior
0
its a second button. thats the only point. Yes, they could have wrapped up the effect into swipe, just like they can get rid on consecrate and roll the effect into wrath, just like they can get rid of DnD and roll it into blood boil, etc.

its a different button, thats all. Frankly, thats usually enough of an advantage to want to keep it.
its not like you have something else to hit instead.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
/sigh

Someone needs to bite the bullet and do a unified tank dps/threat thread to sort this stuff out, because a much larger part of discussions like this are based on conjecture and specific ability comparisons than we really should be satisfied with. We all still consider DKs to be powerful AoE tanks based on Zarko's AoE threat thread which was like 2 months and 10 beta builds ago. Is it even still true? I suspect so, but I'm a lot less confident in it than I'd like to be.

/not it


It's um... I dunno, threat is such a non-issue right now (AoE or single target) at 85 that it's hard to get motivated for something like that. If it ends up being an issue ever, it will be way down the line if DPS outscales us, and at that point it's really hard to guess what's going to happen with our stats anyway.
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90 Tauren Druid
10110
I disagree with the idea that thrash should of had its SD component removed because the fact that the more dps a boss or adds do the less time SD will be up. If anything they should of made it so the dot from thrash couldn't have been applicable to bosses that have normal dps to keep it balanced. I think anyway you look at it unless a boss was immune to the bleed from thrash it's going to be used even if the threat is low because of rend and tear.
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85 Night Elf Druid
12205
I disagree with the idea that thrash should of had its SD component removed because the fact that the more dps a boss or adds do the less time SD will be up. If anything they should of made it so the dot from thrash couldn't have been applicable to bosses that have normal dps to keep it balanced. I think anyway you look at it unless a boss was immune to the bleed from thrash it's going to be used even if the threat is low because of rend and tear.


Lacerate?

And no, our uptime is just fine with the removal of the DoT procs.
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90 Tauren Druid
10110

Lacerate?

And no, our uptime is just fine with the removal of the DoT procs.


I never forgot about lacerate. I'm only really talking situations in which you are getting hit fast and hard. Any source that helps proc SD will help since crit is not going to get as near as high as wotlk levels ( or so we think).


O I completely agree the uptime is just fine on normal boss fights :)

lets just pray that there are no fast heavy hitter bosses all expansion
Edited by Mairymoocow on 11/15/2010 6:29 PM PST
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85 Troll Druid
5410
The uptime is still pretty great obviously, especially on boss fights where you can keep up Pulverize 85% of the time.
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80 Night Elf Druid
9700
I have some concerns about our AOE tanking damage intake. I tacked it onto the Thrash discussion because I thought that Thrash was out main answer to it.

I think the uptime on our shields is going to be balanced around hitting a single target (IE boss) and by extension the swing timer of a single target.

Do you guys think the crits from swipe and thrash (DD not dot) will be able to balance out the increased incoming attacks in a pack tanking situation?

If we proc 3 shields on 1 swipe it is still only one hit we can absorb. Increasing the number of incoming attacks by a factor of 4 or 5 seems that druid block mechanics would be left behind in comparison to the Shield block mechanics of Pallies or warriors who get a flat % block chance on every target.

Or do you guys think that the blocks from druids will be large enough that blocking fewer hits but for a larger amount will work out as a wash?
Edited by Stormclaw on 11/15/2010 6:38 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
10110
I have some concerns about our AOE tanking damage intake. I tacked it onto the Thrash discussion because I thought that Thrash was out main answer to it.

I think the uptime on our shields is going to be balanced around hitting a single target (IE boss) and by extension the swing timer of a single target.

Do you guys think the crits from swipe and thrash (DD not dot) will be able to balance out the increased incoming attacks in a pack tanking situation?

If we proc 3 shields on 1 swipe it is still only one hit we can absorb. Increasing the number of incoming attacks by a factor of 4 or 5 seems that druid block mechanics would be left behind in comparison to the Shield block mechanics of Pallies or warriors who get a flat % block chance on every target.

Or do you guys think that the blocks from druids will be large enough that blocking fewer hits but for a larger amount will work out as a wash?


Well you're thinking like a WOTLK mindset here. While we have always been the worst tank on trash I don't think its an issue because you're not going to get the lets nuke it all down pulls in Cata.
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85 Troll Druid
5410
I personally think it's going to be a wash, only because at any one time we're only supposed to be tanking 2-3 mobs maximum that hit decently hard.

If there's more mobs than that we're doing something we're not supposed to in the encounter.

If there are more mobs, they should hit weaker than decently hard. Thus it'll not matter who's able to absorb/block.

The first boss in Blackrock Caverns on heroic makes me think it's a small issue though. Tanking the boss, and the adds can seriously hurt you when you're in appropriate gear.
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90 Orc Warrior
10025

Or do you guys think that the blocks from druids will be large enough that blocking fewer hits but for a larger amount will work out as a wash?


Probably. As long as the attackers attack for low amounts, you'll fully absorb the attack.

Anything more than around 4 mobs, you'll probably be at a deficit, but anything more than 4 mobs generally don't hit hard enough to matter.
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90 Tauren Druid
10110

Or do you guys think that the blocks from druids will be large enough that blocking fewer hits but for a larger amount will work out as a wash?


Probably. As long as the attackers attack for low amounts, you'll fully absorb the attack.

Anything more than around 4 mobs, you'll probably be at a deficit, but anything more than 4 mobs generally don't hit hard enough to matter.


perhaps it's equivalent exchange for having the best dmg reduction against magic


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85 Troll Druid
5410
Eh, I don't see it as much of an exchange. On things that don't matter, we'll get hit harder(lots of small mobs). On the adverse, we'll have larger absorbs than 30% of the damage usually(2-3 harder hitting mobs).

So seems like it's mostly irrelevant for a min-max perspective.

Though, I don't think Durids* are in the place for a nerf at the moment.
Edited by Warstehdruid on 11/15/2010 7:33 PM PST
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