Why does ret have lots of RNG procs?

80 Blood Elf Paladin
9785
oh requital, we all know you hate paladins now, you can stop being so angry about it. :3


Hate Paladins never! Hate our systematically broken spec, Yes I do.
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81 Human Paladin
4975
Folks who say RNG procs require "more skill"-- I feel sorry for you.
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85 Human Paladin
3190
Yeah we paladins need to make a stand and say NO to RNG!!!
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9205
I don't mind if they don't change Retribution to be less RNG based but I do feel that Ret is a bit too RNG based at the moment.
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100 Human Paladin
13775
RNG doesn't require a lot of skill, but it does require paying more attention. Without RNG you just do the same static thing over and over, take the prot rotation:
CS > Judge > CS > AS/HW > CS > SotR

That is extremely static. The only thing that changes is up is....wait for it...an rng Grand Crusader proc.

You could make ret have no RNG procs, and balance it's damage around that. But it would have a very fixed rotation like prot once you got enough haste. Lets pretend they gave ret an instant cast exorcism on a 15 second cooldown or something.
CS > Judge > CS > HoW/Exorcism/HW/Consecration > CS > TV
that would be extremely static. You could probably even work out a castsequence macro for the entire thing.

Sure RNG isn't something that takes super skill to handle, but you can't just fall into a fixed pattern when there is RNG. It forces you to change things up. You can't just do the entire rotation from muscle memory, you have to actually *gasp* watch what you are doing and watch for procs.

To put it another way, on a target dummy, you can focus on your procs and things and never make a mistake.

If you had 1 button attack macro on a complex boss fight, you could focus on boss abilities, and never make a mistake.

Now lets combine the two together. You are now keeping an eye on what's going on with the boss fight on top of making sure you pay attention to random things that happen on your rotation. In that situation, a more skillfull player will come out on top.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9205
RNG doesn't require a lot of skill, but it does require paying more attention. Without RNG you just do the same static thing over and over, take the prot rotation:
CS > Judge > CS > AS/HW > CS > SotR

That is extremely static. The only thing that changes is up is....wait for it...an rng Grand Crusader proc.

You could make ret have no RNG procs, and balance it's damage around that. But it would have a very fixed rotation like prot once you got enough haste. Lets pretend they gave ret an instant cast exorcism on a 15 second cooldown or something.
CS > Judge > CS > HoW/Exorcism/HW/Consecration > CS > TV
that would be extremely static. You could probably even work out a castsequence macro for the entire thing.

Sure RNG isn't something that takes super skill to handle, but you can't just fall into a fixed pattern when there is RNG. It forces you to change things up. You can't just do the entire rotation from muscle memory, you have to actually *gasp* watch what you are doing and watch for procs.

To put it another way, on a target dummy, you can focus on your procs and things and never make a mistake.

If you had 1 button attack macro on a complex boss fight, you could focus on boss abilities, and never make a mistake.

Now lets combine the two together. You are now keeping an eye on what's going on with the boss fight on top of making sure you pay attention to random things that happen on your rotation. In that situation, a more skillfull player will come out on top.


Agreed! I do fairly decent damage in my guild raids and RNG is needed for a dps spec to add in a level of complexity to it. Tank specs don't need that so much since have to focus on other things like their threat, hp level, tank cooldowns, boss position, etc.

I think what most people are arguing is that ret is a bit too RNG based. I think some people are advocating getting rid of at least one of the RNG talents/abilities we have.
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85 Human Paladin
6565
RNG doesn't require a lot of skill, but it does require paying more attention. Without RNG you just do the same static thing over and over, take the prot rotation:
CS > Judge > CS > AS/HW > CS > SotR

That is extremely static. The only thing that changes is up is....wait for it...an rng Grand Crusader proc.

You could make ret have no RNG procs, and balance it's damage around that. But it would have a very fixed rotation like prot once you got enough haste. Lets pretend they gave ret an instant cast exorcism on a 15 second cooldown or something.
CS > Judge > CS > HoW/Exorcism/HW/Consecration > CS > TV
that would be extremely static. You could probably even work out a castsequence macro for the entire thing.

Sure RNG isn't something that takes super skill to handle, but you can't just fall into a fixed pattern when there is RNG. It forces you to change things up. You can't just do the entire rotation from muscle memory, you have to actually *gasp* watch what you are doing and watch for procs.

To put it another way, on a target dummy, you can focus on your procs and things and never make a mistake.

If you had 1 button attack macro on a complex boss fight, you could focus on boss abilities, and never make a mistake.

Now lets combine the two together. You are now keeping an eye on what's going on with the boss fight on top of making sure you pay attention to random things that happen on your rotation. In that situation, a more skillfull player will come out on top.


I don't think anyone here is saying that there should be no RNG just that there is too much of it. There have been fights where the RNG has been rapid fire and others where there was a lengthy dry spell in procs. One of the limitations with RNG is that it can make your dps less consistent all by itself. Meaning, there is no skill involved with when the procs occur. You can do your best as far as time on target, effectively managing cool downs etc... and still end up doing significantly less dps for your trouble if rng doesn't smile on you. Or you can have the opposite where rng aligns perfectly and you pump out amazing dps. But again, what does that have to do with skill?

In my opinion we are too much of a 'casino' spec right now and that could have consequences with progression raids in Cata. I'd hate to have the difference between victory and defeat come down to the electronic equivalent of a coin toss.

If we had one less rng ability then we do now I would be satisfied. My own personal preference would be to change our mastery from HoL to doing a % of damage as holy damage. Kind of like how most other dps specs masteries work right now. My reasoning being that it fits lore-wise, it fits thematically and it could conceivably make mastery worthwhile for ret.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10210
I like the people in this thread who think that ret takes skill, when in actuality, it's just "do whatever the mod tells you".

Ret PvE performance is based on how well you can configure a mod like clcinfo, and not how well you adjust to random procs.
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90 Human Paladin
10935
rng procs enforce skill priorities over rotations. One of ret's classic issues is that bad rets could do almost as much damage as good rets, aka face roll. Having to adapt to whatever the RNG throws at you while still paying attention to the fight will separate the wheat from the chaff.


I've been hearing this a lot, and I still don't understand why it is important to have good and bad players in a class. If the dps from a good player is roughly equal to or only slightly better than the bad players dps, then it doesn't matter which ret pally you take to the raid...they're all about the same.

Why isn't that good?!? or, how is that bad?

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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12050
I've been hearing this a lot, and I still don't understand why it is important to have good and bad players in a class. If the dps from a good player is roughly equal to or only slightly better than the bad players dps, then it doesn't matter which ret pally you take to the raid...they're all about the same.

Why isn't that good?!? or, how is that bad?

Blizzard could also send us full epic gear for us to sit around in major cities with. Hell, if they wanted to make it hard, they could actually make us fly to the instances and talk to the boss to get our free epics.

I mean: why should we have to work for something? Why should we have a challenge? One of the things that keeps people playing this game is a sense of accomplishment. If you remove that, especially on the personal level, people will quit playing in large numbers.

This is especially true for PVP -- why else would you PVP?
Edited by Tainn on 11/18/2010 8:05 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
10210
rng procs enforce skill priorities over rotations. One of ret's classic issues is that bad rets could do almost as much damage as good rets, aka face roll. Having to adapt to whatever the RNG throws at you while still paying attention to the fight will separate the wheat from the chaff.


I've been hearing this a lot, and I still don't understand why it is important to have good and bad players in a class. If the dps from a good player is roughly equal to or only slightly better than the bad players dps, then it doesn't matter which ret pally you take to the raid...they're all about the same.

Why isn't that good?!? or, how is that bad?


Because that's directly in opposition of blizzard's "Bring the player, not the class" mentality.

If, all things being equal, all classes had a smaller delta between good and bad players, and all classes had identical DPS, it would be a purely "Bring the class" situation. This would lead to classes that perform better on certain fights being stacked. Highly mobile fight? Cover your buffs, and then stack the rest of the classes with ones that perform very well in mobile fights.

Highly stationary fight? Cover 1 of each buff, and then stack the class that performs best in a stationary fight.

Not to mention, good players, who try hard, learn about their class, and do whatever they can to maximize their DPS, spend hours and hours theorycrafting, or reading up on the theorycrafting that is performed for their class are barely rewarded over just being ignorant and doing whatever you want.

It's a pretty terrible design goal.

What developers should be designing for is accessibility, making the game accessible to players of all skill levels by providing a wide range of experiences, while also creating a very high end level of play for the competitive.
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52 Dwarf Rogue
8545
This is best explained in song form!

World of *proc* Warcraft
Is an RPG
The *proc* only one that I need
It's the RPG for me
World of Warcraft
Is all that I play
All other*proc* games are lame
It puts them all to shame
I only play *proc* games that are popular
I only buy the games
the magazines tell me to buy
That *proc* way I know
I get good games for sure
I may have a shallow mind
But you *proc* can kiss my behind

World of Warcraft
It consumes *proc* my life
And that is probably why
I'll never have a wife
World of Warcraft has awesome music
And *proc* that is probably why
It always get remixed
I always buy *proc* the soundtrack
to each expansion
Oh it is *proc* the only thing
that I will listen to
Oh sure *proc* one day it may
drive me insane
You may think that I'm a fool
Well *proc* I'm here to say "*proc* you!"

World of *proc*craft
On *proc*
With music *proc*
And *proc* by *proc*
It is *proc* *proc**proc**proc*
Must save the world again
Right here from my own den
Hopefully I'll get through
The game just fine*proc**proc*
I don't know why I continue
to play *proc* game
They'll be making these
'til the end of time
Oh I guess I will pay
For these *proc*
games 'til Doomsday

procing procs on proc of proc proc proc,
Genar Tornspart

Legendaryfrog created original lyrics, Genar owns original beard (who is owned by Blizard). All rights reserved (not really). LLC. (no actual company participated)
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100 Human Paladin
16210
rng procs enforce skill priorities over rotations. One of ret's classic issues is that bad rets could do almost as much damage as good rets, aka face roll. Having to adapt to whatever the RNG throws at you while still paying attention to the fight will separate the wheat from the chaff.


^ this is how Blizz feels, best bet is to adapt and deal with it because I doubt it is going to change.

As much as it sucks, it is what it is.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10210
If, and this is only if, ret paladins received another source of holy power generation on top of Crusader Strike, Divine Purpose would either have to be removed, or drastically nerfed.

Ret paladins already have the highest holy power generation rate out of all paladin specs, and giving them 1 more 100% reliable source (as if Divine Purpose isn't reliable, with a 40% proc chance on every filler ability, and finisher you would use) without adjusting Divine Purpose downwards in proc% would give a ridiculous proc rate. In addition, another 100% HoPo generating ability would severely limit the usefulness of Divine Purpose.

Ret DPS would also gain a substantial dps jump, which it doesn't need. The solutions lie elsewhere, and in adding another 100% generator, it does not.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8970
What does RNG stand for...(please dont bash i really dunno)


Random Number Generator. Basically it means random chance, that is decided through rolling a random number.


technically its a binomial randomizer as computers can't actually create random numbers.

:)
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100 Human Paladin
13775
I play the following classes at 80: Hunter, Shadow Priest, Death Knight, and Paladin. I have a mage at level 74. Out of all of those classes, the new ret rotation is far more interesting and engaging to me. It all comes down to opinion of course, but I really enjoy Ret's rotation. It's definately more fun to me than the simplistic shadow priest rotation for instance.

To the poster above me, yeah I actually thought of mentioning that also that computers (as we generally know them) technically only generate pseudo-random numbers.
Edited by Bravehearth on 11/18/2010 10:12 AM PST
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