Approximation of raid boss strengths (lore)?

85 Blood Elf Mage
4230
Vaethria, where would you put Algalon in your list? He is not an end boss,but I feel he is a powerful-enough entity to merit listing among the rest, no?


Edited in below;

Yogg-Saron/C'thun
Kil'jaeden/Archimonde
Deathwing
Malygos
Ragnaros
Arthas
Algalon the Observer
Hakkar
Nefarian/Onyxia
Kel'thuzad
Prince Malchezzar
Illidan Stormrage
Magtheridon
Sartharion/Halion
Kael'thas
Ossirian the Unscarred
Lady Vashj
The Titanic Watchers (all bosses in Vault of Archavon)
Anub'arak
Gruul
Zul'jin
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90 Human Paladin
8185
Vaethria, where would you put Algalon in your list? He is not an end boss,but I feel he is a powerful-enough entity to merit listing among the rest, no?


Edited in below;

Yogg-Saron/C'thun
Kil'jaeden/Archimonde
Deathwing
Malygos
Ragnaros
Arthas
Algalon the Observer
Hakkar
Nefarian/Onyxia
Kel'thuzad
Prince Malchezzar
Illidan Stormrage
Magtheridon
Sartharion/Halion
Kael'thas
Ossirian the Unscarred
Lady Vashj
The Titanic Watchers (all bosses in Vault of Archavon)
Anub'arak
Gruul
Zul'jin


You placed Anub'arak above Gruul? The dude tears dragon's out of the sky like it's no big deal. And Vashj above the titanic watchers like Thorim?? Why is Kael'thas ranked so high as well?

What are the reasons, justifications for you list? Just curious.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
4230
Vaethria, where would you put Algalon in your list? He is not an end boss,but I feel he is a powerful-enough entity to merit listing among the rest, no?


Edited in below;

Yogg-Saron/C'thun
Kil'jaeden/Archimonde
Deathwing
Malygos
Ragnaros
Arthas
Algalon the Observer
Hakkar
Nefarian/Onyxia
Kel'thuzad
Prince Malchezzar
Illidan Stormrage
Magtheridon
Sartharion/Halion
Kael'thas
Ossirian the Unscarred
Lady Vashj
The Titanic Watchers (all bosses in Vault of Archavon)
Anub'arak
Gruul
Zul'jin


You placed Anub'arak above Gruul? The dude tears dragon's out of the sky like it's no big deal. And Vashj above the titanic watchers like Thorim?? Why is Kael'thas ranked so high as well?

What are the reasons, justifications for you list? Just curious.

A bunch that you didn't ask for are on the first page, too, so you know.

As to yours...

Gruul took down drakes. The same kind of drakes that got killed by Alliance Gryphon Riders all throughout the Second War. "Dragonkiller" is just a badass epithet; he didn't take down any full-grown dragons on the scale of Deathwing's brood (such as Onyxia, Nefarian, or Deathwing)
He was really really strong, but not that awesome.

Anub'arak was a sorcerer-king of the Nerubian people. The Nerubians are one of the three most ancient civilizations on Azeroth; if any race would have the knowledge required to give their leader incredible control of magic, it would be them.
Anub'arak wins. :P

Vashj is ranked high because she's old enough to have fought in the War of the Ancients. She's literally had over ten thousand years to work on her skills, and her magic; something very few others on the list have had. Her in-game presentation was, I'd say, an understatement of her true abilities.

As for Kael'thas, he was the most powerful mage that Quel'thalas had produced since his father - and many centuries younger. Then he took up with Kil'jaeden, and gained a lot more power. When the Eredar Lord of the Burning Legion is acting as your personal endorser and giving you magical power in exchange for your service, your abilities are going to curve upwards rather sharply in a rather short period of time.
Basically, Kael was all hopped-up on super-demon-juice, making him more powerful than he otherwise could have ever hoped to be. :P

The Watchers are where they are because, despite their obvious level of power, they were intended as observers, not defenders. Titanic constructs have shown a distinct tendency towards remaining neutral in as many matters as they can, only acting in either self defense or in direct action against the Burning Legion or the Old Gods. Yes, they're powerful, but they don't constantly strive to gain more power, as almost all those ranked higher than them on my list do.
The Watchers are basically created at a given power level, and stay at that power level - or even lose some of it - while everyone else is constantly after more power. Hence, they get surpassed.
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90 Human Paladin
17285
And Vashj above the titanic watchers like Thorim??


The mention of the Vault of Archavon suggests that was referring to Archavon the Stone Watcher, Emalon the Storm Watcher, Koralon the Flame Watcher, and Toravon the Ice Watcher.

The Keepers of Ulduar are substantially more powerful. I'd place them above Nefarian, on that list.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
4230
And Vashj above the titanic watchers like Thorim??


The mention of the Vault of Archavon suggests that was referring to Archavon the Stone Watcher, Emalon the Storm Watcher, Koralon the Flame Watcher, and Toravon the Ice Watcher.

The Keepers of Ulduar are substantially more powerful. I'd place them above Nefarian, on that list.

Oh, also that.
I misread. :P

The list was only of end-raid bosses, plus Algalon as it was asked.

If I went and did every boss in the game...

well, that would take too bloody long. :P
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90 Human Paladin
8185
A bunch that you didn't ask for are on the first page, too, so you know.

As to yours...

Gruul took down drakes. The same kind of drakes that got killed by Alliance Gryphon Riders all throughout the Second War. "Dragonkiller" is just a badass epithet; he didn't take down any full-grown dragons on the scale of Deathwing's brood (such as Onyxia, Nefarian, or Deathwing)
He was really really strong, but not that awesome.

Anub'arak was a sorcerer-king of the Nerubian people. The Nerubians are one of the three most ancient civilizations on Azeroth; if any race would have the knowledge required to give their leader incredible control of magic, it would be them.
Anub'arak wins. :P

Vashj is ranked high because she's old enough to have fought in the War of the Ancients. She's literally had over ten thousand years to work on her skills, and her magic; something very few others on the list have had. Her in-game presentation was, I'd say, an understatement of her true abilities.

As for Kael'thas, he was the most powerful mage that Quel'thalas had produced since his father - and many centuries younger. Then he took up with Kil'jaeden, and gained a lot more power. When the Eredar Lord of the Burning Legion is acting as your personal endorser and giving you magical power in exchange for your service, your abilities are going to curve upwards rather sharply in a rather short period of time.
Basically, Kael was all hopped-up on super-demon-juice, making him more powerful than he otherwise could have ever hoped to be. :P

The Watchers are where they are because, despite their obvious level of power, they were intended as observers, not defenders. Titanic constructs have shown a distinct tendency towards remaining neutral in as many matters as they can, only acting in either self defense or in direct action against the Burning Legion or the Old Gods. Yes, they're powerful, but they don't constantly strive to gain more power, as almost all those ranked higher than them on my list do.
The Watchers are basically created at a given power level, and stay at that power level - or even lose some of it - while everyone else is constantly after more power. Hence, they get surpassed.


Fair enough. Why Ragnaros above Algalon? He is a titan. And where would Murmur and Al Akir go? I would also think an Eredar lord of the Burning Legion like Prince Malchazar would be MUCh stronger than Kel Thuzad, who I don't see being that powerful to begin with. EVen Lord Jaraxxas would seem stronger to me.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
4230
Fair enough. Why Ragnaros above Algalon? He is a titan. And where would Murmur and Al Akir go? I would also think an Eredar lord of the Burning Legion like Prince Malchazar would be MUCh stronger than Kel Thuzad, who I don't see being that powerful to begin with. EVen Lord Jaraxxas would seem stronger to me.

Algalon is not a titan; he's a servant of them, just like Thorim, the Watchers, the Avatar of Freya, or any other servant. He's very powerful, to be sure, but he is not a Titan.

Ragnaros goes above Algalon because it's been said that the Titans and their servants waged a war to seal the Elemental Lords in their planes, as well as to lock away the Old Gods.
While Algalon is a very powerful servant of the Titans, if the Titans themselves had to join the war that sealed Ragnaros, Therazane, Al'Akir and Neptulon away... (never mind their bosses, the Old Gods) I don't think Algalon is going to manage any of them on his own. He's very, very powerful - but they're still another tier of power. (Algalon may be a match for Al'akir, as he's been stated as being the weakest of the four, IIRC)
Murmur would likely be of similar power to the Azerothian Elemental Lords, probably a bit more powerful than any one of them singularly, given his reputation.

Kel'thuzad is by far the most powerful Lich to ever exist. While Prince Malchezzar and Lord Jarraxus are definitely powerful, neither of them absorbed a great deal of the freaking Sunwell's power in order to return to Azeroth in unlife. Kel'thuzad, the human Necromancer, would be a gnat before them. Kel'thuzad, the Lich, was a potent enough force that the only thing capable of bringing him into being properly was immersion in the greatest fount of magic on Azeroth. Which then destroyed said magic fountain.
I'm pretty sure it's safe to say a good deal of that power went straight into Kel'thuzad, making him incredibly powerful.
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90 Human Paladin
8185
Fair enough. Why Ragnaros above Algalon? He is a titan. And where would Murmur and Al Akir go? I would also think an Eredar lord of the Burning Legion like Prince Malchazar would be MUCh stronger than Kel Thuzad, who I don't see being that powerful to begin with. EVen Lord Jaraxxas would seem stronger to me.

Algalon is not a titan; he's a servant of them, just like Thorim, the Watchers, the Avatar of Freya, or any other servant. He's very powerful, to be sure, but he is not a Titan.

Ragnaros goes above Algalon because it's been said that the Titans and their servants waged a war to seal the Elemental Lords in their planes, as well as to lock away the Old Gods.
While Algalon is a very powerful servant of the Titans, if the Titans themselves had to join the war that sealed Ragnaros, Therazane, Al'Akir and Neptulon away... (never mind their bosses, the Old Gods) I don't think Algalon is going to manage any of them on his own. He's very, very powerful - but they're still another tier of power. (Algalon may be a match for Al'akir, as he's been stated as being the weakest of the four, IIRC)
Murmur would likely be of similar power to the Azerothian Elemental Lords, probably a bit more powerful than any one of them singularly, given his reputation.

Kel'thuzad is by far the most powerful Lich to ever exist. While Prince Malchezzar and Lord Jarraxus are definitely powerful, neither of them absorbed a great deal of the freaking Sunwell's power in order to return to Azeroth in unlife. Kel'thuzad, the human Necromancer, would be a gnat before them. Kel'thuzad, the Lich, was a potent enough force that the only thing capable of bringing him into being properly was immersion in the greatest fount of magic on Azeroth. Which then destroyed said magic fountain.
I'm pretty sure it's safe to say a good deal of that power went straight into Kel'thuzad, making him incredibly powerful.


IIRC, he didn't absorb it as much as corrupt it, and really it was the whole ritual that did it since it was nothing but demonic and shadow magic. Most of the Sunwell's power escaped in the form of Anveena.

And are we certain Algalon isn't a titan and instead just a servant? It was implied he was far more powerful than the watchers of Ulduar.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
4230
IIRC, he didn't absorb it as much as corrupt it, and really it was the whole ritual that did it since it was nothing but demonic and shadow magic. Most of the Sunwell's power escaped in the form of Anveena.

And are we certain Algalon isn't a titan and instead just a servant? It was implied he was far more powerful than the watchers of Ulduar.

Most, but not all. It's debatable. The fact that in order to raise Kel'thuzad as a Lich - when others have been shown raised as Liches in much less dramatic manners - it required the use of the Sunwell as a focus for the magic suggests that Kel'thuzad is especially powerful.

As to Algalon; he's definitely a servant.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Titan
Known Titans
Most of the known titans come from the elite, ruling sect known as the Pantheon. Little is known of the names or details of the titans, beyond these few:
Pantheon

Aman'Thul
Eonar
Norgannon
Khaz'goroth
Aggramar
Golganneth
Sargeras

Suspected Titants
Chris Metzen stated in BlizzCast 12 that "Will we see actual titans one day." This implies that we have not yet see any.

Aman
Auriaya
Freya
Hodir
Ironaya
Jotun
Loken
Maiden of Grief
Maiden of Virtue
Myzrael
Thorim

All of the above in the "Suspected Titans" category from WoWwiki are either directly confirmed as "Titanic Keepers" (Loken, Thorim, Freya, similar), or implied to be; most have also been corrupted by the Old Gods and killed by players.

With regards to Algalon;
http://www.wowpedia.org/Algalon
Algalon was sent by the titans after Watcher Loken's death activated a planetary fail-safe protection, indicating possible distress on Azeroth. Algalon's task is to analyze any systemic corruption on the planet. If it's deemed beyond saving, the Titans will "re-originate" the planet to cleanse it of corruption, killing all currently living organisms in the process. After his defeat in Ulduar, he chose to monitor the activities of the mortal races of Azeroth. His outlook on life and the Titans' plans has been called into question, so he seeks to understand what makes Azeroth so different from the countless worlds he has observed before.

Things that he says;
(Upon aggro)
"Your actions are illogical. All possible results for this encounter have been calculated. The Pantheon will receive the Observer's message regardless of outcome. "
"I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion... of empathy. I... have... felt... NOTHING! A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?"
"Perhaps it is your imperfection that which grants you free will. That allows you to persevere against cosmically calculated odds. You prevailed where the Titans' own perfect creations have failed."

Primarily take note, from the big quote, that he was sent by the Titans when their Watcher died; they sent him to investigate what was happening, rather than showing up themselves.

From his quotes, in order;
The first one refers to The Pantheon (ie; the Titans) and Algalon (ie; the Observer) as separate entities - suggesting that he is a creation and servant of the Titans, not a Titan himself.
The second one refers to the Titans explicitly as The Makers - why would he refer to the Titans as the Makers if he was a Titan himself?
Finally, the third quote has Algalon suggesting that those who have defeated him have "bested the perfection of the Titan's creations;" why would he suggest this upon defeat if he were not himself among those creations?

It all adds up to a simple conclusion;
Algalon is not a Titan. :P
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
6960
And are we certain Algalon isn't a titan and instead just a servant? It was implied he was far more powerful than the watchers of Ulduar.


Whatever Algalon is, exactly, one thing is certain: The Pantheon of Titans entrusted him with the task of evaluating Azeroth. It was up to him to destroy it or save it. Given the nature of Azeroth (it is uniquely magical, and uniquely blessed with extra-Titan attention, and it is also the prison of the Old Gods, no?), the fact that Algalon was given the unbelievable responsibility he was given says a lot about Algalon.

I would guess that he is perhaps as powerful as some of the Naaru; certainly he has the ability to travel the stars in and out of Azeroth. He also has the power to re-originate the planet; but I think that is more a process that he activates, rather than a process that he carries out entirely with his own strength.

I don't know a lot about the lore, but: if the Elemental Lords were the minions of the Old Gods, and Algalon is the "Herald of the Titans," I would venture a guess that he is of comparable power to beings like Ragnaros or whatever.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
4230
Whatever Algalon is, exactly, one thing is certain: The Pantheon of Titans entrusted him with the task of evaluating Azeroth. It was up to him to destroy it or save it. Given the nature of Azeroth (it is uniquely magical, and uniquely blessed with extra-Titan attention, and it is also the prison of the Old Gods, no?), the fact that Algalon was given the unbelievable responsibility he was given says a lot about Algalon.

I would guess that he is perhaps as powerful as some of the Naaru; certainly he has the ability to travel the stars in and out of Azeroth. He also has the power to re-originate the planet; but I think that is more a process that he activates, rather than a process that he carries out entirely with his own strength.

I don't know a lot about the lore, but: if the Elemental Lords were the minions of the Old Gods, and Algalon is the "Herald of the Titans," I would venture a guess that he is of comparable power to beings like Ragnaros or whatever.

Algalon sends a signal to the Titans to inform them that planets need originating.

He himself points out that he has sent this signal from thousands of planets; "wasting" a "million-million lives" in the process.

He is certainly a very powerful and gifted servant of the Titans, but he is sent primarily to... well, Observe. Hence his title; his job is to come along and inspect worlds upon which certain Titan-placed warning signals have been tripped. (In the case of Azeroth, the death of Watcher Loken, the Titanic Construct entrusted with the protection of Azeroth itself)
Upon determining the status of the world, his job is to then send a signal to the Titans; Reply Code Alpha, if all is well, and the world continues to exist; Reply Code Omega, if the world is corrupted beyond recovery, and then the Titans add it to the list of places to wipe the slate clean the next time they make a pass through that section of the universe.

All the theories I've seen on the following are theories, but given the long wait between evidence of Titanic visits, it strikes me as reasonable;
And Algalon has a very different form of travel to the Naaru or the Burning Legion; where the latter traverse space and planets via magic, using portals and dimension-hopping through the Twisting Nether, Algalon travels the same way that the Titans do.
Algalon and the Titans themselves traverse the Great Dark between the worlds of the Warcraft Universe in ships. Actual, physical, ships.
They travel between worlds over long, long, long periods of time; it's not ripping a portal into the Nether and stepping through, like we do from Azeroth to Outland, or the Legion does from their worlds to invade Outland. They literally travel between the stars, slowly but surely, upon their interstellar craft - whatever those craft may be. As such, they are much slower than those races that travel instantaneously via portals... but they also avoid drawing the attention of those who would consume the sorts of magics required for those portals, thus preserving the worlds.
Plus, they're immortal; I highly doubt they care about a few hundred years between planets to muck about with; it'd give them time to come up with new things to do. :P
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90 Human Paladin
17285
Titans are metal-skinned giants with molten blood, whereas Algalon seems to be entirely composed of elemental stardust. His abilities are also celestial-themed, which is inconsistent with those displayed by the known titan subraces.

Aesir have storm-based powers. Hodir, Loken, and Thorim seem to be examples of this type, as are the Pantheon members Aman'Thul, Golganneth, and Norgannon.

Vanir have earth-based powers. Freya is presumably one, as are the Pantheon members Aggramar, Eonar, Khaz'goroth, and Sargeras.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
ITT, people who haven't fought Algalon. =/
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85 Tauren Death Knight
10315
-Yogg-Saron/C'thun
-Deathwing
-KJ/Archimonde
-Algalon
-Ragnaros
-Murmur
-Arthas


I think Murmur is stronger than the Old Gods from the way the Cipher of Damnation made him sound. Like, shatter the universe strong.
No kidding.


He can kill people just with a Sigh? Yeesh.
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90 Human Paladin
17285
illidan: used to be an archmage
KT: used to be a average joe studying in the kirin tor


Kel'Thuzad was a member of the Council of Six - the rulers of the Kirin Tor. He was one of the most powerful archmagi in Dalaran, second only to Antonidas, before he left to found the Cult of the Damned.

Illidan: gained special powers from Sargeras
Kt: gained some necromantic powers from the lich king, nothing much


Under the Lich King's tutelage, Kel'Thuzad became the most powerful necromancer on Azeroth (other than the Lich King himself). He can control hundreds of undead creatures.

Illidan: studied demonic magics and became a demon hunter
KT: studied how to put plague in rice


Kel'Thuzad also studied the book of Medivh, which taught him many secrets unknown to lesser magi. He learned how to summon the demon lord Archimonde, and made the necessary preparations, in a matter of hours.

Illidan: mastered fighting with glaives
KT: cant fight worth !%*#


While it's true that Kel'Thuzad isn't an exceptional melee combatant, he can defend himself using his animated chains.

Illidan is a more well-rounded character overall (being both a skilled fighter and a powerful magic-user), but when comparing their abilities as spellcasters alone, Kel'Thuzad has the advantage.
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90 Human Paladin
17285
pretty sure according to official lore kel'thuzad was a nobody in Kirin Tor, unless they ret conned it.


The Warcraft III manual said, "Kel’Thuzad was one of the greatest Archmagi of Dalaran. He was one of the members of the Kirin Tor and a dear friend of the Archmage Antonidas."

The Tides of Darkness novel includes scenes with Kel'Thuzad on the Kirin Tor's ruling council.

his magic skills were supposed to be average.


Blizzard's RPG stats made Kel'Thuzad out to be a better mage than the likes of Rhonin, Jaina, Krasus, Khadgar, Kael'thas, or Illidan.

Also after he became a necromancer ARthas who was a fresh paladin took him down effortlessly.


Kel'Thuzad wasn't trying to kill Arthas. Having Arthas kill Kel'Thuzad (and bring him back as a lich later) was all part of Ner'zhul's plan, and Kel'Thuzad knew that in advance.
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