Garrosh in Twilight Highlands (Spoilers)

100 Draenei Paladin
12355
...Are you kidding? Had Wrynn sent all his forces after an orc fleet minding it's own business, we'd be drowning in posts calling a racist bastard and how dare he do that tot he orcs, who are just misunderstood.

And if Sylvanas did it, then we would be treated to endless discussion about her raising troops from the dead, mind control, whether or not she's the new !#@%* Queen :cough: Lich Queen.
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85 Undead Priest
3225

All the carriers that we see during the 'cutscene' are destroyed. Apparently the Alliance also took the Horde's navel fleet to town, leaving only the Orcish destroyer that the player lands on and what looks like somekind of Goblin support ship left behind.

Suffcied to say that the Horde payed big time for Garrosh's ego. Hopefully a lengthy swim back to the shore will mellow him somewhat. Least for a little bit.


1. He says the fleet was attacked, not destroyed, and there're two other ships nearby if i remember correctly.

2. about as much as the alliance payed for being in the two fights.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4515
Funny thing is that if this was Sylvanas or King Chin it would be forgiven. Guess its cause elves and human are more popular.
Yeah if it was Sylvanas Horde posters would give her a free pass but if it were Wrynn Horde posters would be flaming.
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80 Gnome Mage
2465
1. He says the fleet was attacked, not destroyed, and there're two other ships nearby if i remember correctly.


So he does.
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80 Undead Warlock
2540
Funny thing is that if this was Sylvanas or King Chin it would be forgiven. Guess its cause elves and human are more popular.

If it was Sylvanas or Varian they still would've looked like morons. Even Varian was smart enough to say "Don't attack the Horde, we'll fight them sometime else. Just get our men there."
Edited by Morth on 11/11/2010 9:26 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
5190
No he was going into enemy territory he should have been expecting an ambush. Also the escorts are like the anti Air units from WC3 they would have torn the dragons (Not Deathwing) to shreads.


I don't think he should have been expecting an ambush, after all, they were sneaking in as well, going through the passes to avoid detection.

You never expect your ambush to be ambushed. You can't plan for that!
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80 Gnome Mage
2465
No he was going into enemy territory he should have been expecting an ambush. Also the escorts are like the anti Air units from WC3 they would have torn the dragons (Not Deathwing) to shreads.


I don't think he should have been expecting an ambush, after all, they were sneaking in as well, going through the passes to avoid detection.

You never expect your ambush to be ambushed. You can't plan for that!


Yes, yes you can.

When your launching an invasion into enemy territory, against an enemy that has known for some time that your going to be launching said invasion and has had ample oppertunity to prepare for you its resonable for you to expect somekind of ambush or otherwise sneaky tactics.

Yes Garrosh's forces were sneaking in. Yes they had not seen any signs of Twilight forces up until that point. This doesnt change the fact that a commander has to be reasonably prepared for any situation that he might find himself in. In this regard Garrosh failed horribly
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80 Undead Warlock
2540
No he was going into enemy territory he should have been expecting an ambush. Also the escorts are like the anti Air units from WC3 they would have torn the dragons (Not Deathwing) to shreads.


I don't think he should have been expecting an ambush, after all, they were sneaking in as well, going through the passes to avoid detection.

You never expect your ambush to be ambushed. You can't plan for that!


Yes, yes you can.

When your launching an invasion into enemy territory, against an enemy that has known for some time that your going to be launching said invasion and has had ample oppertunity to prepare for you its resonable for you to expect somekind of ambush or otherwise sneaky tactics.

Yes Garrosh's forces were sneaking in. Yes they had not seen any signs of Twilight forces up until that point. This doesnt change the fact that a commander has to be reasonably prepared for any situation that he might find himself in. In this regard Garrosh failed horribly

The Goblin Captain seemed to realize how idiotic Garrosh's plan was too.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
5190
No he was going into enemy territory he should have been expecting an ambush. Also the escorts are like the anti Air units from WC3 they would have torn the dragons (Not Deathwing) to shreads.


I don't think he should have been expecting an ambush, after all, they were sneaking in as well, going through the passes to avoid detection.

You never expect your ambush to be ambushed. You can't plan for that!


Yes, yes you can.

When your launching an invasion into enemy territory, against an enemy that has known for some time that your going to be launching said invasion and has had ample oppertunity to prepare for you its resonable for you to expect somekind of ambush or otherwise sneaky tactics.

Yes Garrosh's forces were sneaking in. Yes they had not seen any signs of Twilight forces up until that point. This doesnt change the fact that a commander has to be reasonably prepared for any situation that he might find himself in. In this regard Garrosh failed horribly


No he was going into enemy territory he should have been expecting an ambush. Also the escorts are like the anti Air units from WC3 they would have torn the dragons (Not Deathwing) to shreads.


I don't think he should have been expecting an ambush, after all, they were sneaking in as well, going through the passes to avoid detection.

You never expect your ambush to be ambushed. You can't plan for that!


Yes, yes you can.

When your launching an invasion into enemy territory, against an enemy that has known for some time that your going to be launching said invasion and has had ample oppertunity to prepare for you its resonable for you to expect somekind of ambush or otherwise sneaky tactics.

Yes Garrosh's forces were sneaking in. Yes they had not seen any signs of Twilight forces up until that point. This doesnt change the fact that a commander has to be reasonably prepared for any situation that he might find himself in. In this regard Garrosh failed horribly


Garrosh didn't know that the enemy had known for some time about his invasion. Nobody did, or else he probably would have brought more dudes. We, OOC, know that it's a trap, because we get ambushed after we go to the bar to see that Dragonmaw guy, and we tell the guy next to Garrosh, but does he ever tell Garrosh that the Twilight guys are watching?

I doubt it. He's probably the mole.

It was a chance, and it failed. It's like when you're playing a FFA in SC2, sometimes when you're attacking your enemies, your base is undefended and you get attacked. It's a chance you have to take.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5505
Funny thing is that if this was Sylvanas or King Chin it would be forgiven. Guess its cause elves and human are more popular.

If it was Sylvanas or Varian they still would've looked like morons. Even Varian was smart enough to say "Don't attack the Horde, we'll fight them sometime else. Just get our men there."


That earned some massive points from Varian to me. Him putting aside his white-hot hatred of the Horde for the betterment of his troops and his strategy puts him in a much, much better position than Garrosh, both strategically and morally.
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80 Undead Warlock
2540
It was a chance, and it failed. It's like when you're playing a FFA in SC2, sometimes when you're attacking your enemies, your base is undefended and you get attacked. It's a chance you have to take.

Seems like a more proper analogy would be you're protecting your mineral line from harrasment when you notice some Roaches running across the map not going to your base. You sent all your marines protecting your SCVs from your mineral line to go attack these random Roaches and your workers are torn apart by Mutalisks.

It wasn't a risk you had to take. Those Roaches weren't doing anything that really threatened you staying in the game. The Mutalisks flying around the map picking off spare workers however do.

Garrosh didn't have to attack the Alliance. They weren't doing anything to him and were there to fight Deathwing like him. He did it because of his own ego.
Edited by Morth on 11/11/2010 10:43 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5505

Garrosh didn't know that the enemy had known for some time about his invasion. Nobody did, or else he probably would have brought more dudes. We, OOC, know that it's a trap, because we get ambushed after we go to the bar to see that Dragonmaw guy, and we tell the guy next to Garrosh, but does he ever tell Garrosh that the Twilight guys are watching?

I doubt it. He's probably the mole.

It was a chance, and it failed. It's like when you're playing a FFA in SC2, sometimes when you're attacking your enemies, your base is undefended and you get attacked. It's a chance you have to take.


There's a difference between taking a risk to assure victory, and taking a risk that doesn't need to be taken.

That's the point people are making: Garrosh should have left the Alliance troops well enough alone so he could focus his efforts on Deathwing's forces. Now wasn't the time to get into a cockfight with the Alliance, he just provoked them for no good reason apart from his whole 'THE HORDE IS BETTER THAN THE ALLIANCE!' shtick.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
5190
It was a chance, and it failed. It's like when you're playing a FFA in SC2, sometimes when you're attacking your enemies, your base is undefended and you get attacked. It's a chance you have to take.

Seems like a more proper analogy would be you're protecting your mineral line from harrasment when you notice some Roaches running across the map not going to your base. You sent all your marines protecting your SCVs from your mineral line to go attack these random Roaches and your workers are torn apart by Mutalisks.


But you couldn't have known those Mutalisks were coming. Better to do some guaranteed damage than let your forces sit in your base, hoping an attack comes. Like my boy Day9 always says - "If you're not attacking, you're probably losing"

Garrosh is a poker player that is very fond of going all in to intimidate and get ahead. Sometimes he has a great hand, and he beats ass if you try to call, other times he doesn't have a great hand, but nobody calls him on it... other times, he just gets outplayed.

This was the third. :(
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80 Undead Warlock
2540
It was a chance, and it failed. It's like when you're playing a FFA in SC2, sometimes when you're attacking your enemies, your base is undefended and you get attacked. It's a chance you have to take.

Seems like a more proper analogy would be you're protecting your mineral line from harrasment when you notice some Roaches running across the map not going to your base. You sent all your marines protecting your SCVs from your mineral line to go attack these random Roaches and your workers are torn apart by Mutalisks.


But you couldn't have known those Mutalisks were coming. Better to do some guaranteed damage than let your forces sit in your base, hoping an attack comes. Like my boy Day9 always says - "If you're not attacking, you're probably losing"

Garrosh is a poker player that is very fond of going all in to intimidate and get ahead. Sometimes he has a great hand, and he beats ass if you try to call, other times he doesn't have a great hand, but nobody calls him on it... other times, he just gets outplayed.

This was the third. :(

He knew Mutalisks were on the map, but he didn't know the Zerg player wanted to use them for harrasment. ( Yes, let's pretend harrasment Isn't an obvious by Mutas being there at all. ) So instead of just taking the precaution of just leaving some forces there to deal with drops, mutas ect, you run your units to go kill two roaches. For the simple fact that you hate Roaches.

Garrosh effectively transitioned into "Losing his entire %*%%ing base" because he moved his forced to kill two roaches because he has a crazy hatred of Roaches.
Edited by Morth on 11/11/2010 10:49 PM PST
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80 Gnome Mage
2465
Garrosh didn't know that the enemy had known for some time about his invasion. Nobody did, or else he probably would have brought more dudes. We, OOC, know that it's a trap, because we get ambushed after we go to the bar to see that Dragonmaw guy, and we tell the guy next to Garrosh, but does he ever tell Garrosh that the Twilight guys are watching?


By the time we head off to the Highlands the Alliance and the Horde have already been fighting the Twilight across Hyjal and Deepholme (I dont think they do much in Vashj'ir or Uldum) We've foiled their major plots outside of the Highlands and they must have known we'd come for them their eventually. The higher ups are bat-sheet nuts but their must be someone there who understand warfare and knows how to set up a battle plan and prepare for that.

Its like saying that on D-Day the Americans should just have expected to be able to climb the cliffs no problem. No enemy soliders waiting for them or mines on the beach. Nope, gunna be smooth sailing all the way to Berlin.
Edited by Liuv on 11/11/2010 10:50 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
5190
It was a chance, and it failed. It's like when you're playing a FFA in SC2, sometimes when you're attacking your enemies, your base is undefended and you get attacked. It's a chance you have to take.

Seems like a more proper analogy would be you're protecting your mineral line from harrasment when you notice some Roaches running across the map not going to your base. You sent all your marines protecting your SCVs from your mineral line to go attack these random Roaches and your workers are torn apart by Mutalisks.


But you couldn't have known those Mutalisks were coming. Better to do some guaranteed damage than let your forces sit in your base, hoping an attack comes. Like my boy Day9 always says - "If you're not attacking, you're probably losing"

Garrosh is a poker player that is very fond of going all in to intimidate and get ahead. Sometimes he has a great hand, and he beats ass if you try to call, other times he doesn't have a great hand, but nobody calls him on it... other times, he just gets outplayed.

This was the third. :(

He knew Mutalisks were on the map, but he didn't know the Zerg player wanted to use them for harrasment. ( Yes, let's pretend harrasment Isn't an obvious by Mutas being there at all. ) So instead of just taking the precaution of just leaving some forces there to deal with drops, mutas ect, you run your units to go kill two roaches. For the simple fact that you hate Roaches.

Garrosh effectively transitioned into "Losing his entire %*%%ing base" because he moved his forced to kill two roaches because he has a crazy hatred of Roaches.


But it wasn't just two roaches, it was an entire alliance fleet, without escorts! It was a high risk/high reward move.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5505

But you couldn't have known those Mutalisks were coming. Better to do some guaranteed damage than let your forces sit in your base, hoping an attack comes. Like my boy Day9 always says - "If you're not attacking, you're probably losing"

Garrosh is a poker player that is very fond of going all in to intimidate and get ahead. Sometimes he has a great hand, and he beats ass if you try to call, other times he doesn't have a great hand, but nobody calls him on it... other times, he just gets outplayed.

This was the third. :(


You're missing the point. You're right when you say that you have to take risks in strategy, and that a good offense is the best defense.

The problem was that he ordered his fights to abandon transports carrying mission critical troops and left them open to attack.

Using the Starcraft analogy - you have a Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism carrying troops with whom your entire strategy hinges on. They're escorted by a small group of offensive aerial units to ensure they remain safe. On the way to your destination, you see a small group of enemy units that you can easily outnumber, but at the risk of leaving your transports defenseless. Do you completely go against your established plan and leave your transports open to attack, thus destroying your entire strategy?

The established plan should have taken priority over Garrosh's whim. More so because he had no good reason to attack the Alliance troops. That's not good strategy, that's just plain stupid.
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80 Undead Warlock
2540

But you couldn't have known those Mutalisks were coming. Better to do some guaranteed damage than let your forces sit in your base, hoping an attack comes. Like my boy Day9 always says - "If you're not attacking, you're probably losing"

Garrosh is a poker player that is very fond of going all in to intimidate and get ahead. Sometimes he has a great hand, and he beats ass if you try to call, other times he doesn't have a great hand, but nobody calls him on it... other times, he just gets outplayed.

This was the third. :(


I think you really said it. This is what I wanted to convey about Garrosh's order and in the other topic as well. Its not a blunder when he fully intended to leave the ships open. He didn't say OMG ALLIANCE KILL EM YEAH and forget about the transport ships he just decided to risk it and it maybe didn't pay off for him this time.

Why take a risk that you don't even need to? The Alliance weren't the main threat, and they weren't why they were in Twilight Highlands. Garrosh pretty much left his carrier ships open because his arrogance in hating Alliance.
But it wasn't just two roaches, it was an entire alliance fleet, without escorts! It was a high risk/high reward move.
Well he was there to fight Deathwing and the Twilight Hammer. Not the Alliance. I don't see what killing the Alliance would have gained.

He could have just said "Just continue flying and ignore them, we're not here for them" but instead when "RAWR OMG ALLIANCE KILL THEM ALL"
Edited by Morth on 11/11/2010 10:54 PM PST
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