FF Question

90 Worgen Druid
10200
Am i supposed to bring every possible talented debuff to a raid as a bear?


Yes. Now make me some water, too.


a sammich*
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90 Night Elf Druid
6925
Am i supposed to bring every possible talented debuff to a raid as a bear?


Yes. Now make me some water, too.


a sammich*


But he tweren't female, so he can't make me a sammich.
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81 Tauren Druid
2410
Too much tension already but let me try to figure out this superstition again.

Not as much as you think.

How much do you think I think?

But it's pretty damn irresponsible to neglect a debuff you can put up with ease when you're the tank.

Ahm uhm. Say I'm 0/2 FA. Let's say it's 10 man so no kitties. Physical dps affected by the debuff: 3 Melee deeps + 2 tanks. FFF stacks timeline (if pulling with FFF):
0s - 1 stack
6s - 2 stacks
12s - 3 stacks
Assuming the 1% armor debuff translates to 1% damage increase (which it doesn't), and average dps 20k

6peeps*6s*20k*0.08 + 6peeps*6s*20k*0.04 = 6*6*20 *0.12 = 86.4k damage.

86k? Pardon my french, big stinking deal.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
But... you pull with FF. Soooo, why not let it do the most threat it possibly can?
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85 Tauren Druid
0
Not as much as you think.

How much do you think I think?

Enough to make it worth specing into, clearly :)
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85 Tauren Druid
7060
Sup Freshyet.

The funny thing about your name is, you're fresh yet at druids. That toon hit 80 three weeks ago. Unless you've got a druid that comes anywhere near the progression, knowledge, ability, or theorycrafting Ri has (or, to be honest, pretty much everybody in this thread except you), you should probably stop posting in this thread before you make yourself look dumber (which, admittedly, would be impressive in a sad way).

Or, I dunno, maybe in addition to your special snowflake spec you could explain your clutch gemming, too, which has no real rhyme or reason to it.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
86k damage is definitely low, too. The ArP debuff is worth far, far, FAR more than that for any class that is predominantly armor mitigated.
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85 Tauren Druid
0
So 1 extra auto attack at the cost of a not-fully-debuffed boss for 12 seconds?


plus the 5 rage you need to spend on charge.
>.>
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81 Tauren Druid
2410
Sup Freshyet
<eaten>
you could explain your clutch gemming, too, which has no real rhyme or reason to it.

Greetings to you too, Pouncekite.
It is my general conviction that people who base their arguments on ad hominem are not interested in productive discussion. Especially given that you seem to be perfectly content with answering your own questions and bring no other useful or valid concerns to the table.

Alright, getting off the sarcastic freight train...
So 1 extra auto attack at the cost of a not-fully-debuffed boss for 12 seconds?
I'll take your make-believe 86k raid damage, thanks.


Great. IMO, sarcasm rarely works against the math.

So what we have is:
1 extra attack to generate threat, rage and a SD proc
versus
less than 1 gcd worth of dps of the same raid composition

The threat gain/loss is a toss between 2 scenarios, so in fact you're trading 1 gcd worth of raid damage + convenience for survivability and quicker rage generation at the start of the pull.
This looks quite inconsequential in general, a personal choice and a far cry from the "pretty damn irresponsible".

plus the 5 rage you need to spend on charge.

I find it quite incredulous that you facepull without a charge whenever it is available.
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81 Tauren Druid
2410
you preface an argument with "if this is this value (which it isn't)"

This was not a part of my argument per se but rather a simplification of the math involved. It is my fault if this was too confusing.

Assuming the 1% armor debuff translates to 1% damage increase (which it doesn't)

You can refer to the DPS percentage increase table in the WoWWiki article about ArPen to see for yourself that 1% of armor reduction corresponds to a much lower percentage increase in DPS at any value of armor and armor debuff.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor_penetration#Armor_penetration_rating_against_WotLK_Raid_bosses
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
you preface an argument with "if this is this value (which it isn't)"

This was not a part of my argument per se but rather a simplification of the math involved. It is my fault if this was too confusing.

Assuming the 1% armor debuff translates to 1% damage increase (which it doesn't)

You can refer to the DPS percentage increase table in the WoWWiki article about ArPen to see for yourself that 1% of armor reduction corresponds to a much lower percentage increase in DPS at any value of armor and armor debuff.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor_penetration#Armor_penetration_rating_against_WotLK_Raid_bosses


Your own chart (which is outdated) shows full stack arp debuff on bosses at a 4-5% damage increase.
Edited by Dellingr on 11/16/2010 10:20 PM PST
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81 Tauren Druid
2410

*Edit* You can't "simplify" math for the sake of twisting it to prove your point, which is completely off-base. I followed it. I don't agree. You pulled those numbers from your ass.


Hmm. It would seem you're taking it personally for whatever reason and resort to the ad hominem as well. You don't accept the model/numbers used - show how it will change the result. I have not set out to get exact benefit ratio of 2 talents - but I managed to demonstrate that even in the over-the-top scenario stacked in the favor of your belief would still be a negligible difference. I debunked some of your prior beliefs and it made you butthurt, tough.
Pull out some of the math of your own, present numbers that disprove my point and I will agree. Right now your raging is useless.

@Dellingr - what makes you think that table is outdated? The full debuff is 12%, at much higher armor values it will be better than the number you're quoting but it will never get to 12%. So my upper estimate still stands.

W/e. Grow up.
Edited by Freshyet on 11/16/2010 10:55 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
I'm still trying to understand your reasoning. How does the 1~ autoattack you gain from stampede outweigh the personal or raid dps gain of having the arp debuff up sooner? I literally just cannot see it.
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80 Night Elf Druid
7245
I hate to break it to everyone, but there is no right or wrong talent choice as it relates to 2/2 FA or 2/2 Stampede. There are many situations when one would outperform the other.

In a static, short-enrage type fight, where you'd only FC once, 2/2 FA is clearly better, even more so if you are melee heavy.

In a fight with a lot of adds, where you would be using FC a lot, maybe you're off-tanking, and the adds wouldn't all need the armor debuff, 2/2 Stampede would probably be better.

You may raid with another Feral who has 2/2 FA (every cat will definitely have it). If this is the case, the raid would be better off if you spent the points elsewhere.

I'd say, leveling to 85, you'd gain more from Stampede than FA.

Raiding at 85, well, that depends on your role, your typical raid comp and your play-style, among other things.
Edited by Achnom on 11/16/2010 11:28 PM PST
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80 Tauren Druid
7620
So, back to answer the OPs question. The effects are the same and do not stack. Both can be applied so both warriors and druids can still gain threat by using sunder armor or faerie fire, (and not receive the "A more powerful spell is already active." message).
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