Warrior Self Healing

85 Blood Elf Warrior
8725
Warrior self healing, specifically that from Blood Craze seems to be broken.

The tooltip reads that any damage taken will trigger the heal. When I have shield block up, unless the mob on me casts spells, I do not get the Blood Craze buff, even though I am still taking damage when I block an attack.

Not only is it's up time terrible, but it can proc while it is still up, also hurting it's total uptime. In the latest beta patch, it was reduced to 3% of total health over 5 seconds, costing 3 talent points.

With Field Dressing, that is increased to 3.6% maximum health over 5 seconds.

Comparatively, druid Leader of the Pack heals for 4% of max health with an internal cooldown of 6 seconds costing 1 talent point. Considering the high crit chance of druids, I think it would be safe to assume a proc every 8 seconds or so.

Assuming 150,000 HP in Cataclysm, the druid talent will heal 6000 health per proc. At 8 seconds between, it will proc 7.5 times per minute, for a total of 45,000 healing.

If the stars aligned and Blood Craze was up immediately after it went down, it would be up 12 times in a minute. At 3.6% health per proc, it will heal 64,800 HP.

In it's current state though, I only see it proc 3-4 times per minute because of only having a 20% or so chance of actually being hit. If a boss swings once every 2 seconds, that's a possible 30 hits in a minute. 20% chance of being hit reduces it to 6 chances to proc Blood Craze per minute. At a 10% proc rate, that is 0.6 swings per minute that proc Blood Craze.

Sure, in actuality the proc rate slightly higher because of boss abilities and spells. But 3-4 procs per minute is still only 16,200-21,600 healing over that minute.

If damage taken through a block could proc Blood Craze, I would be able to have a chance to proc it from 60% of swings, giving me 18 chances to proc in a minute, and 1.8 ppm from auto attack hits. Still not very much, but better.

I understand that balancing these things is difficult, there's a huge difference in number of procs during AE pulls and boss pulls, whereas if the player's hits can proc the heal, there's slightly less of a difference. I hope something can be resolved to have warriors catch up a little in PvE self healing.

Edit: A wrong number
Edited by Silwyn on 11/12/2010 1:26 PM PST
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85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
Prot Warrior self-healing is too low. Blood craze is not the best talent to try to get it. I think I heard something about a change coming to impending victory that would put it more inline than it is now (when you consider enraged regen), but it is still too low compared to other tanks.
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100 Troll Warrior
15100
The your talent is better then my talent game is no fun.

You gotta remember arms fury and prot have access to blood craze.

Second wind and bloody healing was also nurfed this suggests that it was more a dps survivability change then a direct nurf to prot.

I dont know how I feel about tanks being able to self heal... if it was something that tied into our bleeds I think it would be cool or if it was insignificant enough to be a non issue... I just think weird stuff starts to happen when tanks can outheal incoming damage. All of a sudden you can drop a healer and plop in an extra dps which starts to break game mechanics leading to zerg strats.
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imo replace impending victory with ... *drumroll*
Last Man Standing: Your Devastate has a 20% chance to allow the use of Victory Rush, but that Victory Rush only heals for 5/10% of your health. This effect cannot occur more than once every 20sec

1) not too op because of internal cooldown (can adjust % heal and CD as you wish)
2) it's controlled because of the window of victory rush (maybe extend that window in this talent). Meaning you can proc it when you want to, say right after a boss swing, or in the middle of burst damage.
3) the way current WoG is for paladins, it heals for around 10% of their health (i think) every 10sec. However, this talent is much more passive, thus the longer "CD"

Druids might need a buff to self healing as well, to make all tanks on par.
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
Druids might need a buff to self healing as well, to make all tanks on par.


Stop making suggestions to buff everyone.

This is bad design.



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Druids might need a buff to self healing as well, to make all tanks on par.


Stop making suggestions to buff everyone.

This is bad design.


I have a dream!
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85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
Stop making suggestions to buff everyone.

This is bad design.


And calling for nerfs for everyone is... good? Every coin has two sides.
Edited by Kalle on 11/12/2010 4:57 PM PST
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85 Troll Death Knight
5960
You're a troll. Our self-healing Regeneration racial is already over the top, and you want BUFFS?
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85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
You're a troll. Our self-healing Regeneration racial is already over the top, and you want BUFFS?


I'll admit to scratching head for a second...

nerf trolls!
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85 Tauren Druid
6355
Stop making suggestions to buff everyone.

This is bad design.


And calling for nerfs for everyone is... good? Every coin has two sides.


If tanking is TOO strong, then yes. Nerfing all tanks would be called for. (I prefer the term "downward adjustment") For an exagerated example: Tank DPS is 90% of an equally geared DPS and 50% healing efficiency compared to an equally geared healer.

I'm not suggesting tanks need to be nerfed across the board, just stating when a complete adjustment on all tanks could be called for.

I'm not in the raid to dps nor am I there to heal. I get headbutted so they don't have to. Any DPS or Healing (including raid dmg mitigation) I bring with me is a nice bonus, but at the end of the day, I'm there to take the kidney shots so the daintier members don't have to. Same as my fellow tank classes. While I'd rather keep HOW we tank different as much as realistically possible, I hope in the end we each do it as effectively (skill being equal) as one another.

All that said, i'm not sure if perhaps I'm misunderstanding your comment or taking it in the wrong context as from your normal posts I thought you was of a similar mind on the matter.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
I am of similar mind, I just get tired of the rhetoric that nerfing is the only tool to balance. I see DKs as too strong, I see warriors as too weak. I think bears and maybe pallies (with the coming WoG fixes) as at a good balance for someone only looking at how I think everything should work.

Personally I want more to do. I hate how boring tanking became in Wrath outside of Ulduar. I want more to do, to watch for. If they make it so threat is loose enough for me to time my death strikes or use WoG depending on the tank I am on, then I want to be able to and have it meaningful and show a bit of skill. Yet I also want threat to have a tightness that complete relaince on one method of play is hazardous.

Some people just want to completely remove things. I don't see that as a need.

My idea of fun is being able to react and do something, have options and make a choice and hope it is the best one. The road some want to take us makes it so we can only make that choice once every minute or so with defensive cooldowns. That feels too slow and boring. I would rather it be nearly every other swing, but maybe I am weird and different than most. I want to, after an encounter be it a wipe or a kill, look back on what I did and think of something I could do better rather than "stay awake for the next swap..."

Edit: I'll admit it is more of a difference in philosophy. I have great respect for nearly every poster here until they prove otherwise. I try to approach every idea open minded rather than with a bias or self-interest. I'm not saying others are not, only that the method of waht we constitute as balance differs.
Edited by Kalle on 11/12/2010 5:57 PM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
6355
I am of similar mind, I just get tired of the rhetoric that nerfing is the only tool to balance. I see DKs as too strong, I see warriors as too weak. I think bears and maybe pallies (with the coming WoG fixes) as at a good balance for someone only looking at how I think everything should work.

Personally I want more to do. I hate how boring tanking became in Wrath outside of Ulduar. I want more to do, to watch for. If they make it so threat is loose enough for me to time my death strikes or use WoG depending on the tank I am on, then I want to be able to and have it meaningful and show a bit of skill. Yet I also want threat to have a tightness that complete relaince on one method of play is hazardous.

Some people just want to completely remove things. I don't see that as a need.

My idea of fun is being able to react and do something, have options and make a choice and hope it is the best one. The road some want to take us makes it so we can only make that choice once every minute or so with defensive cooldowns. That feels too slow and boring. I would rather it be nearly every other swing, but maybe I am weird and different than most.


Ahh, gotcha. 100% agree with the quote.

I figured I was missing something reading that other quote. Appreciate the clarification.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
Stop making suggestions to buff everyone.

This is bad design.


And calling for nerfs for everyone is... good? Every coin has two sides.


That doesn't make the otherside of the coin any better, does it?


That was part of the point. Sometimes I don't relay intent very well. I was trying to point out that there are quite a few nerf happy folks here and that nerfing is not the only way to balance. Sometimes balance requires buffs (other side of the coin). Balance should be landing on the edge of the coin, not landing on any one side all the time.

I apologize for not being clear. I'm trying to be better.
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Druids might need a buff to self healing as well, to make all tanks on par.


Stop making suggestions to buff everyone.

This is bad design.


I only bring up the point for buffing bear self healing because they would inevitably want to be on par with the other tanks for self heals.

I know bears are in a good state right now, everything is almost properly balanced, with the reduced scaling from Vengeance. They have a much better rotation, and are finally on par with the other tanks. No armor capping to make them as good, no exploiting their stam boost to make them considered for raids.
Edited by Jaime on 11/12/2010 7:35 PM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
That was part of the point. Sometimes I don't relay intent very well. I was trying to point out that there are quite a few nerf happy folks here and that nerfing is not the only way to balance. Sometimes balance requires buffs (other side of the coin). Balance should be landing on the edge of the coin, not landing on any one side all the time.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

This is the Golden Mean fallacy. It's really nice, in theory. Hey, we can meet in the middle somewhere!

http://www.xkcd.com/690/
Here's a good example.

Tuning everyone up to the DK level requires a LOT of changes. DKs heal based on their attacks, so while they sacrifice DPS to keep up Blood Shield, their damage is balanced around having it up. Paladins do not self heal based on their attacks. They would have to have their heals do damage or their damage do heals. Warriors have an option to trade damage for healing sub-20%. Druids have no self healing other than changing forms.

If you really want to tune up everyone's self healing to DK levels--it's a lot of work! In addition, it's ACTUAL homogenization. DKs are *supposed* to be the self healing tanks. It's part of their design philosophy. The fact that paladins can pump out a ton of self healing currently is a bit of an accident caused by vengeance. Without vengeance, no one would care about WoG, because you'd lose threat if you tried to spam WoG in a raid setting.

Saying I don't want everyone's self healing tuned up to DK levels isn't because I want to nerf everyone--it's because I recognize that DKs are currently overtuned, and they are not the target point.

And for this statement:
Balance should be landing on the edge of the coin, not landing on any one side all the time.


Sure, but in this case there's a right answer. It's not the middle of the road.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

This is the Golden Mean fallacy. It's really nice, in theory. Hey, we can meet in the middle somewhere!


Earlier:
I see DKs as too strong, I see warriors as too weak. I think bears and maybe pallies (with the coming WoG fixes) as at a good balance for someone only looking at how I think everything should work.


It is not a fallacy if you have a point of reference that should be achievable. If the goal is unachievable, or inefficient, then it is a fallacy. To say there is not a middle ground on some issues is to also create sense of extremism, intended or not. On the issue of tank balance I think you are misrepresenting what I think the balance should be. I believe there is some middle ground, and I lay it at the current state of bears. It should not be much work to tweak tanks to that balance.

BTW: On a personal note, thank-you for how respectful you are to me at least, if not most people. It's so much better than the responses most people tend to give to those that disagree here. We need more people like you here.

Edit: if this double posts, I am sorry, new forum being buggy.
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
I believe there is some middle ground, and I lay it at the current state of bears.


Okay--we're actually arguing towards the same goal then, roughly speaking.

BTW: On a personal note, thank-you for how respectful you are to me at least, if not most people. It's so much better than the responses most people tend to give to those that disagree here. We need more people like you here.


It's easier for me to be polite to people that I've interacted with in other threads. I frequently get frustrated with people who make me feel like I'm having the same conversation I've had many different times. I struggle with maintaining a polite tone, sometimes. I've been working towards being better at it, because I don't think brusqueness helps the conversation.
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90 Tauren Druid
0
I believe there is some middle ground, and I lay it at the current state of bears.

Okay--we're actually arguing towards the same goal then, roughly speaking


Thumbs Up. There were a lot of "nerfs" to bears on the beta. The end result being they feel just about right vrs the content being faced.

Warriors (from feedback only, I have no data) are slightly below bears but not by very much at all.

Dk's and Paladins have issues that completely change how you handle encounters, especially in 10m. (I'm looking at you conclave and chimerean).

It's easier for me to be polite to people that I've interacted with in other threads. I frequently get frustrated with people who make me feel like I'm having the same conversation I've had many different times. I struggle with maintaining a polite tone, sometimes. I've been working towards being better at it, because I don't think brusqueness helps the conversation.


Thumbs up to this point too. It's soo much easier to weather the occasional head-scratcher post when you have evidence that the person in question is normally level headed and open to discussion.
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
8725

It is not a fallacy if you have a point of reference that should be achievable. If the goal is unachievable, or inefficient, then it is a fallacy. To say there is not a middle ground on some issues is to also create sense of extremism, intended or not. On the issue of tank balance I think you are misrepresenting what I think the balance should be. I believe there is some middle ground, and I lay it at the current state of bears. It should not be much work to tweak tanks to that balance.

I concur. I did not intend my original post to bash bears, I was using it as an example of the type of self healing that was given to warriors as well (passive regen), and showing that ours isn't really worth the two points.
Stacking Mastery and using Shield block worsen the potential of that talent as well, which seems to be counter productive.

If there really is some Impending Victory change already on the way, then the issues here are probably moot.
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