SoJ, or how I learned to love Truth

85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
I'm creating this thread because, after testing it out and thinking about it, I realized something: Seal of Justice is dismally pointless. There is no reason to ever use that seal. Let me explain.

You see, right now, Seal of Justice competes directly with Seal of Truth. You're either using one or the other. Additionally, switching between seals in combat is a bad idea both because of the tremendous mana cost to a ret paladin and because of the lost GCD. Now, let's compare both spells:

Damage: Seal of Justice deals a measly 134 holy damage every attack in the gear I'm wearing. The judgement effect deals about holy 1200 damage. Now let's assume I deal seal damage once every 2 seconds, thanks to both my auto-attacks and my abilities. Compare it to seal of truth, which puts a dot on the target that does 734 holy damage over 15 seconds in my gear. That's about 100 holy damage every two seconds. It stacks up to five times, so that's up to 500 holy damage every 2 seconds. The judgement effect does 1000 holy damage, increased by 10% for each stack of Censure (the DoT), so up to 1500 holy damage. On top of that, if I manage to stack it 5 times, the seal will also do an additional 9% weapon damage as holy damage, so considering I do about 3k damage with my attacks, that's around 270 additional holy damage on top of the ticking DoT. As you can see, Seal of Truth's damage is much, much higher than Seal of Justice's.

Utility: Now, this is what's supposed to make us want to use Seal of Justice instead of Seal of Truth. While Seal of Truth does nothing but damage, Seal of Justice also puts the Justice debuff on your target, limiting its movement speed to 100% speed. Basically, it prevents speed buffs from working, and as it's not considered a movement impairing effect, it can't be removed through things like shifting or HoF. Sounds good in theory, but it's actually flawed. Why?

1) The debuff does not actually snare, so the target isn't actually moving any slower than if it didn't have a speed increasing effect. This means that if anyone else has a snare on the target, they're having more effect on it than your seal of justice, meaning you're pretty much wasting damage to put on a useless debuff.

2. The debuff only lasts 5 seconds. This means that if the target knocks you back or stuns you or roots you or does anything at all to get you off them, it only takes 5 seconds for the already minor effect to dissipate.

3. You have to be in melee to put it on. Considering this is something which you want to put on a target which moves faster than you, hence which you can't catch and actually hit in melee, it becomes frustratingly pointless. Before 4.0, the same debuff was applied through judgement, which had a 10 yard range, meaning it was much easier to get on a target that was just out of reach.

4. There are very few classes that are actually affected by it enough to care. Of course, it cancels out boot enchants/meta gems, but that's 8% speed, nothing that would kill you in the end. The classes that really care are those who use speed increasing abilities, mostly shamans, druids and rogues. Problem is, all those classes can easily dispel Justice anyway. Rogues can cloak of shadows it, druids and shamans have dispels... Druids in particular, which were the one class it used to really matter against, can now just dispel it.

5. Long arm of the Law is a better way to catch up to opponents.

Now, you could also argue that if the enemy keeps dispelling Censure, Seal of Truth becomes useless. However, the same can be said of Seal of Justice.

In conclusion, it can be assumed that Seal of Justice needs help. Either it needs to do more damage or the debuff needs to be stronger. Otherwise, it'll never see any use other than for some rare, anecdotal times.

EDIT: On a side note, I used the damage values on tooltips. In actual gameplay, the damage of those abilities are not only higher, but the gap is larger too. In fact, despite what my tooltips say, here is how much damage each of my abilities do, without counting crits:

Seal of Justice:

Seal damage: 156
Judgement damage: 1625

Seal of Truth:

Censure damage: 197 damage ticks, so up to 985 ticks with 5 stacks
Judgement damage: 1852 without any stacks, 2779 with 5 stacks
Additional damage with 5 stacks: +9% weapon damage, scaled depending on the attack, so my Templar's Verdict did an additional 9% holy damage.

Seal of Righteousness:

Seal damage: 373
Judgement damage: 2046
Also cleaves up to two other targets.

As you can see, both Seal of Righteousness AND Seal of Truth do WAY more damage than Seal of Justice.
Edited by Stoutfist on 11/13/2010 5:35 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
17770
The censure dot appears to be a physical debuff now.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
The censure dot appears to be a physical debuff now.


Then that just makes it even better, compared to Justice which is still dispellable AFAIK.

In fact, even if stacking censure was such a huge issue, Seal of Righteousness still provides enough damage to also outshine seal of justice.

Now, of course, we don't want Seal of Justice to outdamage the actual DPS seals. However, the debuff itself hardly justifies using the seal. Options we could consider:

1) Cancelling haste effects.
2) Increasing the cast time of spells
3) Making it so it actually limits speed to 70%

Any of those three would make Seal of Justice much better.
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90 Draenei Paladin
17770
About the only time the Justice debuff was ever worth using was when you could swap JoL and JoJ depending on who you where fighting and when. Making the application require melee range is probably one of the most counter-intuitive changes to occur with this debuff. Overall, it's probably less useful for sticking on a target than the old proc-a-stun seal.

My guess is that they're afraid to slap an actual snare onto the seal because, like making Rebuke baseline, they're terrified of Holy using it. Because resto shamans are terrifying players with frostbrand... or something.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8830
Honestly I still wish you could apply the stacks with every melee swing instead of just the measly auto swing. Rogues can apply deadly poison stacks with every hit from their weapon regardless of it being an instant attack or regular melee swing. Why is it the slower swinging ret debuff is applied only via auto swings =/
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
My guess is they want Deadly Poison/Envenom to be used in PVP, but not Seal of Truth. No matter what happens, Seal of Justice needs a buff. Buffing its damage wouldn't work either. It needs to do less damage than the other seals in order to not make them worthless, but the debuff itself is so close to worthless that it would have to do virtually as much damage as the other seals in order to be worth using. This means the debuff needs to be buffed.

On a side note, I don't even have Inquiry of Faith. Once I have it at level 85, I don't see how Seal of Justice could keep up with Seal of Truth.
Edited by Stoutfist on 11/13/2010 6:49 AM PST
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4985
Right now, and this has been the case since the patch hit, I would use Insight before using justice in most cases.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8830
My guess is they want Deadly Poison/Envenom to be used in PVP, but not Seal of Truth. No matter what happens, Seal of Justice needs a buff. Buffing its damage wouldn't work either. It needs to do less damage than the other seals in order to not make them worthless, but the debuff itself is so close to worthless that it would have to do virtually as much damage as the other seals in order to be worth using. This means the debuff needs to be buffed.

On a side note, I don't even have Inquiry of Faith. Once I have it at level 85, I don't see how Seal of Justice could keep up with Seal of Truth.


I understand that they want assassination rogues -Using- deadly poison for pvp, however why stop Truth now? Before it was because they wanted a PvE seal and a PvP seal. Since a lot of our damage was passive from seals, making Vengeance/Corruption stack the debuff via auto swings and causing large amounts of damage in pve was a good choice.

Now here we are in a position where are seals are all but abysmal added damage, and the Justice Debuff will most likely not be needed in most cases in Rated or Arenas because you will have someone who can snare better than your "snare". Why should ret be punished and not given a choice to use an alternate seal for some extra damage (when we are already lacking in this department from what I understand) in place of our "Utility" seal debuff that won't always be needed.

Just a simple complaint I've always had and was confused on really. I don't expect it to change but it's worth noting that we should be able to swap to Truth for extra damage if Justice isn't needed or remains in its awful state.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
I was simply stating what seems to be the devs' position, though I don't think they've ever announced it clearly. I don't necessarily agree with it, mind you. Still, their vision seems to be that they want Seal of Justice to be the PVP seal, so I don't want to try and ask for them to make Truth better for PVP when it seems they want Justice to be the PVP seal.

IMHO, a simple movement speed reduction would make it much better. Making the movement limiting effect reduce speed down to 70% would mean it actually slows the target down and allows us to stick to it.

We could also change it so that every time you attack while Seal of Justice is on, the cooldown of your Hammer of Justice is reduced by X seconds. There's tons of things we could think of, but the only certainty is that in its current state, it's not worth using.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8830
I think now that it's being relegated to a melee debuff with a very short duration, it should be altered to a snare instead of a Pseudo snare if they want it to remain a seal we use for PvP. Sadly its usefulness has dropped quite a bit now that the debuff no longer lasts for very long and it requires we actually hit the person in melee range. We more or less have to use our stun or repentance just to apply the debuff and as was said the moment we get stopped for more than a couple seconds the debuff will be gone anyways.

Doubling the duration wouldn't be a horrible idea I believe if they want it to remain just a speed cap. 5 seconds really isn't going to stay around long enough in Rated BGs or arenas to make any sort of difference, especially with every healer being able to dispel magic now.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
Whatever they do, the duration needs to increase. It's impossible to maintain in any meaningful way with a 5 seconds duration right now. With such a low duration, it pretty much goes "You can't run away until you run away".
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
Well actually, many targets will be moving slower because of that debuff.

I already spec into 15% increased movespeed. SoJ would take me back down to 100%.
Since you can HoF our of my Earthbind, and Earthbind won't remove that from me, I wouldn't be able to Ghost Wolf and chase you, because I'd still be stuck down at 100%.

The only problem I think SoJ has is that you can't apply it's effect at a distance and effectively kite people.

Hell, maybe they should even change SoJ to actually slow people. Your lost damage needs to be replaced by some strong utility because, right now, damage is what everybody is going to care about the most.
Edited by Matuk on 11/13/2010 10:58 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
17770
Well actually, many targets will be moving slower because of that debuff.

I already spec into 15% increased movespeed. SoJ would take me back down to 100%.
Since you can HoF our of my Earthbind, and Earthbind won't remove that from me, I wouldn't be able to Ghost Wolf and chase you, because I'd still be stuck down at 100%.

The only problem I think SoJ has is that you can't apply it's effect at a distance and effectively kite people.

Hell, maybe they should even change SoJ to actually slow people. Your lost damage needs to be replaced by some strong utility because, right now, damage is what everybody is going to care about the most.


I strongly suspect they are keeping it as a melee range application is to prevent Holy from kiting.

Aside from a 15% snare being like pissing in the wind, as soon as you purge HoF you're moving twice as fast as the snared ret. So if either person is trying to get away in that scenario, the ret is only at an advantage until HoF is down (which can be stupidly quick) and still in melee range. The five second duration means a ret not on you is not going to be moving faster for long, excluding a 15-30 yard range between the two of you.
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
Well actually, many targets will be moving slower because of that debuff.

I already spec into 15% increased movespeed. SoJ would take me back down to 100%.
Since you can HoF our of my Earthbind, and Earthbind won't remove that from me, I wouldn't be able to Ghost Wolf and chase you, because I'd still be stuck down at 100%.

The only problem I think SoJ has is that you can't apply it's effect at a distance and effectively kite people.

Hell, maybe they should even change SoJ to actually slow people. Your lost damage needs to be replaced by some strong utility because, right now, damage is what everybody is going to care about the most.


I strongly suspect they are keeping it as a melee range application is to prevent Holy from kiting.

Aside from a 15% snare being like pissing in the wind, as soon as you purge HoF you're moving twice as fast as the snared ret. So if either person is trying to get away in that scenario, the ret is only at an advantage until HoF is down (which can be stupidly quick) and still in melee range. The five second duration means a ret not on you is not going to be moving faster for long, excluding a 15-30 yard range between the two of you.

I can Purge HoF, you can stomp Earthbind, I think we're even. :)

But as I've said, I'm of the opinion they need to bring back the ability to apply SoJ through Judgment, in order for you guys to be able to properly catch people. Especially Druids.
Edited by Matuk on 11/13/2010 11:17 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
15255
SoJ needs to seriously be looked at. Even the utility of the SoJ debuff isn't good enough to be worth seal swapping unless you're slowing down a flag carrier, and that's only if the flag carrier has any speed buffs worth worrying about. In Arenas or any battleground that doesn't feature flag carrying SoJ's debuff is not worth the gimped damage tradeoff.

I believe the damage of SoJ should be made to be on par with SoR at least. The debuff should also be upgraded to at least 8 seconds so it doesn't simply run out while we're feared.

I also do not agree that the debuff should apply on judgment. With 40 yard judgments it would simply be too powerful. With LaotL and an increased debuff timer we should be fine. Our opponents do need an actual chance to get away after all lol
Edited by Turranmc on 11/13/2010 1:01 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
18100
I can Purge HoF, you can stomp Earthbind, I think we're even. :)


Until you Frost Shock, of course.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11505
Seal of Justice is just too limited. There's really no other way to put it; for the minor effect it does have, there are too many limiters on the spell, enough so that I pretty much never reach for it ever. In the situations where it could possibly be useful, I'm usually not already using it, and the GCD to seal swap plus the wait for an auto attack means that either the target I wanted to hit is already gone, or I can hit them because they're already snared - in either case being totally useless.

If Holy ends up needing nerfs, then nerf things in the Holy tree. I'm quite tired of the walking-on-eggshells approach they take to utility buffs due to the fear of Holy "possibly" being overpowered with it.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
17120
I liked SoT in PVP.

Then I tried to target swap with a repentance on the target I was on.

Then I decided to use SoJ.
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90 Draenei Paladin
17770
I liked SoT in PVP.

Then I tried to target swap with a repentance on the target I was on.

Then I decided to use SoJ.


Being the most damage for hardswapping without breaking CC, assuming it's more damage than not taking Seals of Command, doesn't make SoJ a good ability.
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