HPally stole my role!!!

85 Dwarf Priest
2480
Not sure when the forum switch is happening so i've posted this in both spots.

Anyone else notice that Holy Paladins were given nearly everything that Disc used to excel at in PvP?

Good absorbs? Check
Power Infusion equivalent? Check
Borrowed Time 2.0? Check
Surge of Light 2.0? Check
Searing Light? Check
Binding Heal 2.0 (Free no-thought required self heals)? Check

Here's a quote from a top-tier Disc player on AJ forums that sums up a few of the blatant talent copies that have occured (http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=214833&page=18):


I'd just like to point out a few talents that make me wonder "What:

Blasing Light (Paladin): This used to be a talent in the priest Holy tree, forcing us to spend 17 points to go that deep to gain 20% damage on smite. That talent was removed entirely, and this talent was conveniently placed in the correct tree for holy paladin dps. If they designed it just like they did priests, this talent would have been in the retribution tree.

Denounce (Paladin): This is a rename of a priest Holy talent that again, is conveniently placed deep in the Holy tree called Surge of Light. Denounce has a 50% chance to proc an instant exorcism, while Surge of Light is 6% and forces you to use very convenient spells like Heal.

Speed of Light (Paladin): Getting haste after using an ability, also another priest talent called Borrowed Time, except the paladin's version is 16% more than the priests version and procs off of a 6 second cooldown. Another great fun fact is that Exorcism is effected by this spell, but doesn't consume the buff 1.0 Exorcisms are great.

Infusion of Light (Paladin): I don't even know where to begin on this talent. Combine this with the haste you get after casting Holy Shock and it turns into a .5-1.0 second Holy Light on a crit. It heals for 10k and costs as much mana as a Holy Shock. Priests Heal is never used, and never will be used in an arena setting, but with this haste, the paladins version of Heal is going to be used endlessly because of the speed.

Friend of mine said the theory for this expansion so far is "Why the f**k not?" and that's clearly what the paladin class has become. I'm not asking for Paladins to be nerfed, I'm asking for priests to be put on par with paladins.



IMO the worst of it is not even the unimaginative talent and thematic copying that has taken place, its that Disc still considered so overwhelmingly powerful by the devs that it should retain limitations that the other classes do not have.

We used to make up for our areas of lack with the ability to tank through damage and very good offensive capability, but now since those strengths have been handed to another class, what are the benefits of playing Disc over a Paladin in arena? What does Disc bring to a team that any of the other healers can't cover just as well for that matter? Offensive Dispels? Please. Why in the world would they make the most defensively capable healing class in Cata also the most offensively capable, then throw table scraps to Disc? Why does Disc still have zero mobility at this point? Because we have a shield that can barely absorb an Ice Lance once every 15 seconds? I just don't get the design philosophy.


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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9110
what are the benefits of playing Disc over a Paladin in arena?


1. Mana Burn says hi, and he can't wait to see you pitted against a holy paladin in the next arena season because he knows you and he will be really close friends as you have been in every arena season previous or at least when there was a holy paladin on the opposing team.

Priests Heal is never used, and never will be used in an arena setting, but with this haste, the paladins version of Heal is going to be used endlessly because of the speed.



2. Infusion of Light has been in the Holy Paladin tree since Arthas was shining his dad's shoes. This did not get taken from disc in any sense of the word. It has always proc'd this effect and is merely continuing to do so now. Secondly, had you taken the time to actually investigate what you're saying, you would realize that even with both of these proc'd at the soft haste cap, the cast time of our equivalent to "Heal" is still 1.5 seconds and ridiculously interruptable by any arena team with the capability. We won't be using ours any more than you will. Guess what that means. It's balanced. Moving on.

3. The fact that you would even bother to compare paladin mastery shields to those of a disc priest tell me that you haven't done much reading on our mastery. If you had, you would know that our mastery shields don't even account for 20% of the shield of a disc priest. Plus, ours go away much much faster. You should read more before you make this comparison seriously. And if your shields are barely absorbing an Ice Lance, then I'd say the problem is on your end because on my disc priest, shields are absorbing about 12-14k atm while ice lances are hitting me for about 4k.

4. I'd like to know what the power infusion equivalent is because if I can actually cast a massive haste buff on a raid member, I should be doing it but I haven't been because I didn't know about it. Can you help me with this one? I'm really hoping that you aren't comparing the haste buff from judgments to power infusion.

5. If you're really this unhappy with your class, you should probably focus on what's wrong with your class. Not what's right with another one. It would sound a little less like mindless qq.

I just don't get the design philosophy.


This is the part of your post that I believe held the most merit. Seriously, do some reading and open minded investigations of your own. This guy your listening to has absolutely no clue imo; top tier or not.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8995
He is probably comparing Divine Favor to Power Infusion. Obviously you can't cast Divine Favor on others, and before it was a poor "copy" of Inner Focus.

Paladins absorbs are no where near what Disc Priests have. I also don't see paladins healing or getting mana back from casting exorcism.

Furthermore no one stole anything because disc priests still have all of their abilities.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9110
He is probably comparing Divine Favor to Power Infusion. Obviously you can't cast Divine Favor on others, and before it was a poor "copy" of Inner Focus.


Yeah but it was absolute pure awesomeness if you had 50 stacks of emerald vigor and wanted to LOH a dragon in ICC. Sadly, that's about the only time I used it. lol
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Lets not forget to mention that Disc priests arre outhealing nearly every healing class out there currently at 80.
Only because the full value of any shield is put into recount as soon as it's cast, regardless of whether or not it actually does anything.

Disc Priest casts shields on every member of the raid the entire fight but only the tanks get their shields popped? Disc Priest still gets 12k per second (or so depending on haste) healing even though they didn't actually do anything...
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
Only because the full value of any shield is put into recount as soon as it's cast, regardless of whether or not it actually does anything.

Disc Priest casts shields on every member of the raid the entire fight but only the tanks get their shields popped? Disc Priest still gets 12k per second (or so depending on haste) healing even though they didn't actually do anything...

No, Recount is accurate now (and was reasonably accurate before).

If I recall, the flaw wasn't that it just gave you Shield credit without a second thought, it was that it couldn't tell which absorption was doing what, so it attributed everything to the earliest-applied absorption effect. This could result in overestimation/misattribution anytime anything caused an absorb (Val'anyr, another Priest's Divine Aegis, Sacred Shield on the tank, even shield blocking, I think) on a target that already had an absorb.
Edited by Believe on 11/13/2010 2:45 PM PST
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37 Blood Elf Warlock
6870

2. Infusion of Light has been in the Holy Paladin tree since Arthas was shining his dad's shoes. This did not get taken from disc in any sense of the word. It has always proc'd this effect and is merely continuing to do so now. Secondly, had you taken the time to actually investigate what you're saying, you would realize that even with both of these proc'd at the soft haste cap, the cast time of our equivalent to "Heal" is still 1.5 seconds and ridiculously interruptable by any arena team with the capability. We won't be using ours any more than you will. Guess what that means. It's balanced. Moving on.


This is not entirely correct. Infusion of light in essence has been there for as long as I can remember, but your math on haste is off. Right now using beta talents, with 0 gear, you can get an IoL Holy Light cast at 0.89 seconds. Just because it casts faster then the GCD does not mean that the cast time is not faster. On live right now with the absurd Speed of Light talent, wearing no gear, you can get a 0.72s cast for Holy Light.

Also remember that on live Speed of Light hits FoL, HL, and DL for 30% haste. IoL only reduces Holy Light by 1.5s. In beta, Speed of Light is 3% haste, and IoL hits HL and DL for 1.5s.

If this priest is unhappy with sub 1s Holy Lights, just wait untill sub 1s Divine Lights :P
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70 Blood Elf Hunter
980
In other words, some Paladin talents are comparable to some Priest talents. One of them allows a certain spell to become instant cast, much like Surge of Light! One of them increases haste, much like Borrowed Time! Priests have a spell that heals them along with their target, and that's comparable to Paladins having built in self-healing!

You can create false narratives out of anything. This is some really dumb QQ. Some of these comparisons are just inane.

I will say this, though: I'd like them to change the Paladin Mastery. I do feel it crosses into Discipline Priest territory. It sort of feels like classes have gone from being layer cakes with clear distinctions to marble cakes with all these overlapping mechanics. I'm not a big fan of the fact that the Paladin Mastery unnecessarily gives Paladins fairly powerful absorption capabilities (not comparable to Discipline Priests', but still powerful), rather than somehow making Paladins more unique.
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90 Human Paladin
7190
Anyone else notice that Holy Paladins were given nearly everything that Disc used to excel at in PvP?

You mean PvP?
Why so serious?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8995
In other words, some Paladin talents are comparable to some Priest talents. One of them allows a certain spell to become instant cast, much like Surge of Light! One of them increases haste, much like Borrowed Time! Priests have a spell that heals them along with their target, and that's comparable to Paladins having built in self-healing!

You can create false narratives out of anything. This is some really dumb QQ. Some of these comparisons are just inane.

I will say this, though: I'd like them to change the Paladin Mastery. I do feel it crosses into Discipline Priest territory. It sort of feels like classes have gone from being layer cakes with clear distinctions to marble cakes with all these overlapping mechanics. I'm not a big fan of the fact that the Paladin Mastery unnecessarily gives Paladins fairly powerful absorption capabilities (not comparable to Discipline Priests', but still powerful), rather than somehow making Paladins more unique.


Exactly what could they give the paladins that would make them unique? The only way they have kept paladins "unique" so far is not to give them the same spell mechanics enjoyed by the four other specs of healers.

Just because something says "absorption" doesn't mean it's anything similar to what disc priests have. Paladin mastery is more akin to something like Inspiration in that it mitigates damage on a target who currently needs healing rather than requiring the forethought of Power Word: Shield. Power Word: Shield and Barrier both require a different line of reasoning than the paladin mastery, which frankly doesn't really require thought from the paladin or really impact the paladin playstyle thought process at all. Not that it needs to, I'm just saying that absorbs is something Disc Priests use as a tool, while for paladins they are a bonus.

The playstyle and what the class can achieve is what I think is important in keeping them unique not a list of different mechanics each have or don't have.
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70 Blood Elf Hunter
980
Exactly what could they give the paladins that would make them unique? The only way they have kept paladins "unique" so far is not to give them the same spell mechanics enjoyed by the four other specs of healers.


I mean, there are a lot of possibilities. The Mastery is supposed to be cool, right? There's room to be imaginative there. I know it's lame not to give specifics, but I'd think it sort of a given that the developers could think of something.

Just because something says "absorption" doesn't mean it's anything similar to what disc priests have.


I agree. Zoom out a bit, though: Discipline's niche is absorption. That's less distinct when another healer can absorb a significant amount of damage, too. It's small things like this that contribute to the "marble cake" feel. They add up.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13010
Discipline Priests stole the Paladins' fluffy wings.

/cast Archangel
/nod
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8995
Exactly what could they give the paladins that would make them unique? The only way they have kept paladins "unique" so far is not to give them the same spell mechanics enjoyed by the four other specs of healers.


I mean, there are a lot of possibilities. The Mastery is supposed to be cool, right? There's room to be imaginative there. I know it's lame not to give specifics, but I'd think it sort of a given that the developers could think of something.

Just because something says "absorption" doesn't mean it's anything similar to what disc priests have.


I agree. Zoom out a bit, though: Discipline's niche is absorption. That's less distinct when another healer can absorb a significant amount of damage, too. It's small things like this that contribute to the "marble cake" feel. They add up.


Resto Druids niche is heal over times. Should the holy priest mastery be removed?

I think our mastery is cool. I think it could be implemented to be more useful maybe, which might make it cooler. But even though our mastery might not be very effective, and another class has more absorption effects, I still think it's a cool mastery.

Of course, I don't really have a problem with a "marble cake" feel. In a game like world of warcraft it's inevitable.
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100 Gnome Priest
15670
They don't want us to be unique. We all have little visual differences, but we're meant to fill the same role. Druids HoTs make them unique in their style, but between my other healing alts, I mostly feel like I have the same basic abilities with different names and icons. Which can make healing among all of them quite easy, once I've adjusted to my key/binding layout.

I have bubbles, my husband has the laser show, the druid gets lots of leaves and the shaman gets blue...stuff.

Pallies didn't steal anything. Blizzard simply spread the love... and now Pallies won't have a reserved spot at the table the way they used to. Possibly. I'm not sure whether that's good or bad, however. (One class making an encounter go from challenging to trivial was very very bad, however)
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