HPally stole my role!!!

16 Gnome Warlock
50
What CC's am supposed to manage as disc? You say you play disc, and think we have CC's? Explain the plural there.


Mind control duh.

I can't tell if Hmrhead is serious or not. I saw him in another thread saying his disc's shields do 14k unbuffed outside of icc. In another he said he raided with a disc who did 6k hps on LK while doing 8k dps on top of it haha

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1020802308?page=1#13
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1021052330?page=4#67
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86 Human Paladin
7530
What CC's am supposed to manage as disc? You say you play disc, and think we have CC's? Explain the plural there.


Mind control duh.

I can't tell if Hmrhead is serious or not. I saw him in another thread saying his disc's shields do 14k unbuffed outside of icc. In another he said he raided with a disc who did 6k hps on LK while doing 8k dps on top of it haha

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1020802308?page=1#13
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1021052330?page=4#67


Forgot about that one. Its fun in BGs to MC folks into the void in EotS, and I have used it in arena as shadow to MC my friends and have the healer heal em so I can burn them down again (that never gets old), but a channeled CC isn't really effective in PvP (or at least I never found a reliable use for it).
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77 Blood Elf Priest
1620
When I hit 80 or what I have done since is of no consequence. I PVP on my disc priest and my holy pally. My disc priest is nowhere near as geared as my holy pally, yet still survives just as well. If you are managing your CC's correctly, no one should ever catch up to you. As for arenas, yes those were a new thing for me this season admittedly. What I accomplished this season vs what you accomplished over however many seasons you played has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand.

What matters is that you say your class is broken. Someone who plays the class disagrees with you, and because you can't refute logical information offered by the player disagreeing with you, it then becomes necessary to comment on someone's arena rating or time played. I would simply ask if you are so much better than me, then why can't your disc priest survive while mine has no problems doing so unless I'm being tunneled to death by half a team?

Sounds to me as though you are the one having trouble figuring out how to play your class. Not me. But then again, I also kill dragons and experience both sides of the game PVP and PVE. So I'm probably not nearly as skilled as someone who just sits in an arena queue all day and spams mana burn. lol


Please post with your disc priest because you've made yourself look like a complete tool.
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84 Blood Elf Priest
3110
What CC's am supposed to manage as disc? You say you play disc, and think we have CC's? Explain the plural there.


Mind control duh.

I can't tell if Hmrhead is serious or not. I saw him in another thread saying his disc's shields do 14k unbuffed outside of icc. In another he said he raided with a disc who did 6k hps on LK while doing 8k dps on top of it haha

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1020802308?page=1#13
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1021052330?page=4#67


And in another thread, I also said that sometimes, i just say stuff to be funny. That would be the "I raid with a disc priest in ICC who......" You guys are way to serious all the time. Maybe emotion just doesnt travel well over the forums. I am dead serious about the absorbs I was getting while dueling in the sewers though. Maybe it was a bug with the shields. IDK. But I know that my friend and I that were dueling were also partied and both his recount and mine recorded said amount of damage before shields broke.

Anyway, the fact that it's come down to basic namecalling pretty much just says, "I win" to me. So by all means please carry on. ;-)

Edited to say - I was just reading somewhere that a bug was found that at one point had disc priests getting the 30% ICC buff even when not in ICC. Don't know if that might have had something to do with it or not because I haven't been able to find out when the hotfix came about but anyway....
Edited by Befiftytwo on 11/17/2010 6:33 AM PST
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85 Dwarf Priest
2480
priests have, fear, and is on a short CD than Hoj and is an AoE fear on top of that.


Paladins have the means to survive between their cooldowns. Priests do not.


Aside from that you do have mana burn which has been brought up and even if you manage to get just ONE mana burn off, it can destroy a paladin.


cool story bro.

That's almost sig worthy.


I don't know where you get off with saying that holy paladins have more damage output than disc priests, all we have is exorcism which is very mana consuming, and crits for 6k in ICC (with the 30% buff) so probably hits for about 2k unbuffed, and with resil lets just make that abotu 1k.


I'll post this quote from Terrel since you were too ignorant to read it the first time, as it outlines why healadins are capable of more DPS:

Blazing Light, Crusade, and Denounce let me cast instant 30% damage bonus HS every 6 sec with a 50% chance of getting a free and instant Exorcism right after. If I don't get a free one, its ok, because they cast at 1-1.3 secs (and I have very little haste). Once I get em to 20% I have a great execute in HoW. Not only that, I can pop my wings and Divine favor at the same time to BLOW STUFF UP!!!! I have burned down Arc mages and hunters while healing myself through their damage with my instants (and insta-fearing lock pets then burning them down with guaranteed crits from exorcism is a special joy after playing disc. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling!). The 75% mana reduction from denounce means I can do this for a long long long time. Disc, with 2 dots, HF, smite and SW:D on CD has decent damage, but it's not as good as Paladin and has much much much worse longevity (and also has the liability of self damage from SW:D). If you think a disc priest can destroy a healadin damage wise, you are clueless. The only benefit Disc has damage wise is the ability to insta Dot someone and let them tick (for small damage) while disc does other things.


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85 Dwarf Priest
2480
By the way, to all you mouth breathers who have been saying priests are where they need to be, if you are correct then why would blizzard have just done this:

* Binding Heal base healing value increased by 20%, from [ 3960 - 5091 ] to [ 4752 - 6110 ]
* Greater Heal base healing value increased by 20%, from [ 6968 - 8098 ] to [ 8361 - 9717 ]
* Heal base healing value increased by 20%, from [ 2613 - 3037 ] to [ 3136 - 3644 ]
* Flash Heal base healing value increased by 20%, from [ 5227 - 6074 ] to [ 6272 - 7289 ]


TY Blizz, this is a good start. Still need to address Disc's mana and DPS issues but at least this is something (albeit geared more towards holy priest).
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86 Human Paladin
7530
By the way, to all you mouth breathers who have been saying priests are where they need to be, if you are correct then why would blizzard have just done this:

* Binding Heal base healing value increased by 20%, from [ 3960 - 5091 ] to [ 4752 - 6110 ]
* Greater Heal base healing value increased by 20%, from [ 6968 - 8098 ] to [ 8361 - 9717 ]
* Heal base healing value increased by 20%, from [ 2613 - 3037 ] to [ 3136 - 3644 ]
* Flash Heal base healing value increased by 20%, from [ 5227 - 6074 ] to [ 6272 - 7289 ]


TY Blizz, this is a good start. Still need to address Disc's mana and DPS issues but at least this is something (albeit geared more towards holy priest).


And as Holy Paladins become more disc like, Disc becomes more like the old Holy Pally. 20% stronger single target heals and 24% heal buff to only one target at a time. Priests feel like Paladins did in BC, before their first big redesign for wrath. Mechanics have poor synergy, are clunky, and the whole class feel patched together.

I gotta say being balanced around a 24% grace buff is absurd. Grace was a sort of cool idea when it could be up on multiple targets, became a bit unwieldy when it was limited to one target at a 9% buff, but at 24% its just ridiculous. Any time disc directly heals a target besides its primary target, it heals at 3/4 strength? Not only that it will put a 1/4 strength debuff on the next heal on their primary target.

Disc looks like it will be a pure tank healer. Keeping up Shield, Renew, and hitting PoM and Penance on CD while spamming heal is at least a little more interesting than keeping up Sacred shield and judgement of light while spamming holy light.

Edit: Why do both priest specs have to push extra buttons just to get our heals at full strength? Is that supposed to be fun? Maybe the priest community needs to petition for new class designers, because there is a theme here. Want holy to AoE heal, sure, let me get chakra set up (hope its not on CD). Want disc to switch targets, sure, let me stack grace with penance (hope its not on CD)
Edited by Terrel on 11/17/2010 11:22 AM PST
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- World of Warcraft
85 Tauren Paladin
6700


And as Holy Paladins become more disc like, Disc becomes more like the old Holy Pally. 20% stronger single target heals and 24% heal buff to only one target at a time. Priests feel like Paladins did in BC, before their first big redesign for wrath. Mechanics have poor synergy, are clunky, and the whole class feel patched together.

I gotta say being balanced around a 24% grace buff is absurd. Grace was a sort of cool idea when it could be up on multiple targets, became a bit unwieldy when it was limited to one target at a 9% buff, but at 24% its just ridiculous. Any time disc directly heals a target besides its primary target, it heals at 3/4 strength? Not only that it will put a 1/4 strength debuff on the next heal on their primary target.

Disc looks like it will be a pure tank healer. Keeping up Shield, Renew, and hitting PoM and Penance on CD while spamming heal is at least a little more interesting than keeping up Sacred shield and judgement of light while spamming holy light.


Disc and Holy have always had a similar playstyle, in that all you had to do was spam a few buttons to be absurdly effective. I'm not too sure what your point is with talking about Paladins and Disc switching roles, but if Disc is now going to be single target healers -- Paladins are going to be...what?

Bubbling people?

Please.
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86 Human Paladin
7530


Disc and Holy have always had a similar playstyle, in that all you had to do was spam a few buttons to be absurdly effective. I'm not too sure what your point is with talking about Paladins and Disc switching roles, but if Disc is now going to be single target healers -- Paladins are going to be...what?

Bubbling people?

Please.


Disc spamming one button was an ICC thing, and kind of broken. Not sure when you started playing, but disc went in to wrath as a tank healer that was more complex and versatile than a Paladin.

You should read the whole post. It outlines the way Paladins have become more like Disc. Paladins are becoming more versatile, and Disc's role is becoming quite narrow.

Paladins are a pretty complete healer now. CoH type AoE heal, Holy Radiance, and with PotI, Beacon and a direct heal, they can heal 3 people every cast.

Disc is balanced around around a 24% buff that can effect only one target at a time and Aegis on PoH casts (if I crit do I get 2 Aegis'?). Its clunky and full of patchwork fixes (kind of like beacon was a patch for Paladins lack of AoE heals).
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- World of Warcraft
85 Tauren Paladin
6700

Disc spamming one button was an ICC thing, and kind of broken. Not sure when you started playing, but disc went in to wrath as a tank healer that was more complex and versatile than a Paladin.

I can say with certain that if you had a Disc priest healing the tank you were doing it wrong. They were best as raid healers because of bubbling, and I do remember that for a very short period of time were they deemed 'kind of' good at Tank*** healing (Pre CD nerf to Penance).


You should read the whole post. It outlines the way Paladins have become more like Disc. Paladins are becoming more versatile, and Disc's role is becoming quite narrow.

That's like saying the class Priests aren't flexible or versatile overall. Don't think about the specs for a moment, a stand alone priest still is the most flexible healer. Regardless of a priest being in a certain spec, I think it's very hard to say "Oh well because of this spec that means that I'm not as flexible anymore!".


Disc is balanced around around a 24% buff that can effect only one target at a time and Aegis on PoH casts (if I crit do I get 2 Aegis'?). Its clunky and full of patchwork fixes (kind of like beacon was a patch for Paladins lack of AoE heals).


If you were able to put that buff on multiple people it would be drastically OP to say the least.
Edited by Practical on 11/17/2010 12:22 PM PST
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86 Human Paladin
7530

I do remember that for a very short period of time were they deemed 'kind of' good at Paladin healing (Pre CD nerf to Penance).


Nonsense!!! Disc has always been good at healing Paladins!!!!!
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- World of Warcraft
85 Tauren Paladin
6700

I do remember that for a very short period of time were they deemed 'kind of' good at Paladin healing (Pre CD nerf to Penance).


Nonsense!!! Disc has always been good at healing Paladins!!!!!

Bahahahahaha. Fixed (the original post, that is).
Edited by Practical on 11/17/2010 12:23 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
15030
Dey took r jerbs.
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85 Undead Priest
3825
Wait what? I'm pretty sure during naxx and uld disc priests were decent tank healers (and part of toc? Idk I quit around then), if you wanted to raid heal as a priest you went holy, as shields weren't worth spamming back then. Unless, you know, EJ lied to me all that time... I usually trust them though. But regardless, it has nothing to do with the topic on hand which is about pvp.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned anything about why mana burn is really meh atm... First of all it is a 2.5 second cast and disc no longer has a talent to reduce the cast time.. in arena situations that is plenty of time to (easily) LOS it and/or interrupt it. I don't even want to touch on the fact that priests have the worst mana efficiency at 85 atm (least last I checked) and with how we'll need multiple successful casts of mana burn to really put a dent in a paladin's mana pool...

As for our aoe fear you realize we need to get within 8yd range to use it right...? Its far less reliable than HoJ since so many classes have anti-fear abilities and it can break on damage. Not to mention you guys get hand of protection and hand of freedom. Where's my mobility? Oh wait.

Also for the ones going "zomg pve game" then why are they adding in rated bgs and making a pretty big deal out of it?

And what do you mean exorcism takes a lot of mana? Oh wait you didn't pick up the obvious pvp talent Denounce. Hmm. Are we even on the same page? Don't forget holy wrath and holy shock (can be used for dps too, gasp I know, and holy shock can proc the free and instant exorcism).. and wings and divine favor for added deeps if needed.

Anyways, I'm not too upset as I have a paladin alt I plan on playing in pvp in cata since it feels like playing disc in plate, this character will be going shadow. I can only hope blizz notices what they've done, but knowing them changes will probably happen a season or two later.
Edited by Cakes on 11/20/2010 8:33 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Priest
7275

Disc spamming one button was an ICC thing, and kind of broken. Not sure when you started playing, but disc went in to wrath as a tank healer that was more complex and versatile than a Paladin.

I can say with certain that if you had a Disc priest healing the tank you were doing it wrong. They were best as raid healers because of bubbling, and I do remember that for a very short period of time were they deemed 'kind of' good at Tank*** healing (Pre CD nerf to Penance).


that was the reason for the nerf. at the same time you were healing a tank, bubble gave you a super-hasted prayer of healing to throw out in between. the end result was the ability to solo heal 10 man naxx, and heal about half of a 25 man naxx raid including the tanks, at the same time.

but no one remembers because it was wrath naxx, it was easy regardless of who was healing.



You should read the whole post. It outlines the way Paladins have become more like Disc. Paladins are becoming more versatile, and Disc's role is becoming quite narrow.

That's like saying the class Priests aren't flexible or versatile overall. Don't think about the specs for a moment, a stand alone priest still is the most flexible healer. Regardless of a priest being in a certain spec, I think it's very hard to say "Oh well because of this spec that means that I'm not as flexible anymore!".


disc hasn't been flexible for awhile. blizz's solution to grace being OP was to make grace worthless, and turn the class into a bubble spammer from ulduar forward. that was their idea not ours. only at high levels of gear and minimal numbers of healers per raid later in ICC did getting away from bubble spam make sense, by using prayer of healing more, and even then it was questionable.


Disc is balanced around around a 24% buff that can effect only one target at a time and Aegis on PoH casts (if I crit do I get 2 Aegis'?). Its clunky and full of patchwork fixes (kind of like beacon was a patch for Paladins lack of AoE heals).


If you were able to put that buff on multiple people it would be drastically OP to say the least.


it depends. what is your definition of OP?

i see nothing wrong with making grace a self buff that boosts potential prayer/mending/absorb HPS to that of a resto druid. they clearly didn't have a problem with a 2 button class outperforming resto druids in ICC, and they clearly now don't have a problem with a 3-4 button resto druid class outperforming shaman and holy priests at 85 from looking at the beta logs.

either way the class has been screwed by grace since that pre-ulduar nerf and it looks like that won't change.

a much better design, imo, coming from their chakra idea with holy priests, would've been to make grace the disc chakra. have it pump up absorbs/mending/prayer and be maintained by prayer casts as a self buff, which is lost if you use penance/flash but penance and flash would retain their boost on targets lower than a certain percentage of health.

that way disc could remain in its current role, as a raid healer/mitigator, and would be available as a tank savior with penance/flash at a penalty. that's the current playstyle of the class, i don't see why they are so intent on changing it, except for the fact that paladins are still grossly overpowered even with the nerf to beacon, and they feel the need to try to tell people that holy paladins aren't still a reserved raid slot when the facts say otherwise.

it's a simple matter of numbers, after all..

at any given time in wrath paladins were the #1 tank class, the #1 healing class, and the #2 melee dps class, for pve purposes. not only that but all 3 of those specs were also viable in PVP.

rather than deal with the multitudes of whine should paladins and druids suddenly be anything less than the best classes in the game, it's much easier to completely change another class and use it as a (false) example of how paladins and druids shouldn't be stacked in raids.

the basic flaw in all of these design questions is that there are two classes which can effectively perform every role in the game. druids can even do it from either melee or ranged dps. that was alleviated at 60 by simply making those specs worthless for pve. their desire to make bears, prot paladins, boomkins, and ret paladins viable in pve has broken class representation. for every priest or shaman there are 10 paladins and druids. and they have no qualms about taking a risk with an overhaul of the priest class that completely turns the playstyle upside down, if it means leaving paladins and druids in the 4 button/win state that those 10 players of those classes expect.
Edited by Xayd on 11/20/2010 12:04 PM PST
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Mana burn says hi


Any Holy Paladin that whines about mana burn is terrible and stupid, especially considering that you now have a heal that isn't based on mana. In fact, you get Holy Power from being Mana Burned.


Aside from that you do have mana burn which has been brought up and even if you manage to get just ONE mana burn off, it can destroy a paladin.


LOL, if you think that one mana burn (which the priest still has to hard cast and actually use mana for btw) is the difference between Priest longevity and Holy Paladin longevity, you're either just talking for the sake of talking since you obviously haven't played a discipline priest or you're genuinely that dumb.
Edited by Krugar on 11/20/2010 1:29 PM PST
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