DK vs other at i359 gear=10k hp advantage?

85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10020
Serious question. What is the actual percentage in reduction of damage?

Last I heard, with a DK it should be right now about 35-45%, which is too high compared to shield tanks sitting at 32-37% (not my numbers, just those I have read).

Yes, the heal needs to be toned down a bit, but we are comparing damage taken then healed back to damage never taken. Not sure which you would prefer.

It's a varying amount depending on avoidance, mastery, the boss swing timer, boss swing damage, and overheal. The range of our mastery is rather ridiculous. I may write up a post trying to account for the variables, but it will not be pretty to read.
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90 Orc Warrior
10130
It's a varying amount depending on avoidance, mastery, the boss swing timer, boss swing damage, and overheal. The range of our mastery is rather ridiculous. I may write up a post trying to account for the variables, but it will not be pretty to read.



Bear mastery is odd too.

Graphing it is really weird because it's like 6 inter-dependent factors (Bear crit, Bear avoidance, Bear AP, Bear Vengeance uptime, Boss Swing Speed, and Boss Damage).

DK mastery is similarly weird--clipping, avoidance, absorbs and cooldowns affect it in various ways.

I'd be curious to read what you come up with.

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85 Night Elf Druid
12205
It's a varying amount depending on avoidance, mastery, the boss swing timer, boss swing damage, and overheal. The range of our mastery is rather ridiculous. I may write up a post trying to account for the variables, but it will not be pretty to read.



Bear mastery is odd too.

Graphing it is really weird because it's like 6 inter-dependent factors (Bear crit, Bear avoidance, Bear AP, Bear Vengeance uptime, Boss Swing Speed, and Boss Damage).

DK mastery is similarly weird--clipping, avoidance, absorbs and cooldowns affect it in various ways.

I'd be curious to read what you come up with.


I'm almost done! /promise
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
Death Strike doesn't scale with your HP, but it does scale with boss damage. (You heal for more if you get dealt more damage)


So does block. You block more if you take more damage.

Blood Shield is overpowered right now, but it's really a numbers issue, not a fundamental design issue.
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90 Orc Warrior
10130
Blood Shield is overpowered right now, but it's really a numbers issue, not a fundamental design issue.


IMO, it's a fundamental design issue due to the control you have. 100% reliable mechanics are more powerful by default.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
IMO, it's a fundamental design issue due to the control you have. 100% reliable mechanics are more powerful by default.


Sure, but not by that much. If a well-used Blood Shield provided as much healing/damage reduction as the other classes get from their masteries (and whatever other goodies they get), I don't think we'd be overpowered.

Edit: assuming they fixed the whole "magic damage = bigger Blood Shields" thing that is.
Edited by Anothriel on 11/16/2010 11:17 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
I thought that DKs as as a Heroic Class were supposed to be a little more powered especially as a tank...


No. Classes are supposed to be balanced.
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80 Blood Elf Death Knight
7850
I thought that DKs as as a Heroic Class were supposed to be a little more powered especially as a tank...

why when someone wants the class they chose to do everything they say the other class is OP? I sure don't remember one shotting any same level elites or bosses. heck She couldn't even solo kill Lexxivus teh soul caller BEFORE patch when she outleveled him!

in lore they are ...recycled Paladins and Heros. It fits they are special..that is why only one per acount.
I am appalled at how weak mine has become since the patch. I barely go on her except to farm for other characters now leveling far faster. I as originally Frost with just enough in unholy to have a ghoul to solo with.

IMHO If they are going to Equalize everything..then I want her to turn into animals and have heals for party (actually MINE does... racial gift of Naruu) :p


You really need to look up the definition for Hero Class. We're not supposed to be better then everyone else, just different... And we're not weak. You just lack the knowledge on how to play one, big difference.
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90 Tauren Druid
0
I thought that DKs as as a Heroic Class were supposed to be a little more powered especially as a tank...


It's cute that this mindset still exists on the forums.

So, Im curious. You DS every 8 seconds or so which means you are covering about 3 boss hits.

Is your BS completely absorbed by the first? the second?
And people talking about "clipping" If you are clipping your shield it means you went 8 seconds taking 0 dmg. Is that correct?

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85 Draenei Death Knight
5585
"Clipping" a shield means that you overwrite it with another before the first one was fully used. In some cases, a very large shield can be overwritten by your minimum healed shield. So no... it doesn't mean you took 0 damage in 8 seconds... it just means you took less damage in 8 seconds than your full shield.

Edited by Mysiana on 11/16/2010 12:31 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
So, Im curious. You DS every 8 seconds or so which means you are covering about 3 boss hits.


It's more like 6-6.5 seconds in reality, with RE taken into account.


Is your BS completely absorbed by the first? the second?


With the mastery I have on beta (~17), it generally fully absorbs one hit and is used up on the second hit, unless I got a good avoidance string before my last Death Strike (in which case it will get used up on the first hit).


And people talking about "clipping" If you are clipping your shield it means you went 8 seconds taking 0 dmg. Is that correct?


Clipping is when your current Blood Shield reduces the damage you take within your next 5 second window. This reduces the strength of your next Blood Shield. It doesn't have to be that you took 0 damage in that time period; as long as Blood Shield is reducing a single point of damage within the 5 second window before your next Death Strike, clipping is happening to some degree. It's a sort of negative feedback thing that makes our mastery stat experience diminishing absolute returns.

In an extreme case you can clip so much that you actually overwrite your old shield with a new one, but diminishing returns kick in well before that point.
Edited by Anothriel on 11/16/2010 12:28 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
0
OK, thanks. The term clipping normally means "overwriting" to me which is why I asked.

The term as its being used with regards to BS is not intuitive but i can deal :P

"Clipping" a shield means that you overwrite it with another before the first one was fully used. In some cases, a very large shield can be overwritten by your minimum healed shield. So no... it doesn't mean you took 0 damage in 8 seconds... it just means you took less damage in 8 seconds than your full shield.


PS in that scenario, you took zero dmg between deathstrikes did you not? your shield is still up and absorbing. AKA no physical dmg got through. Anoth's explanation makes more sense to me at least.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
OK, thanks. The term clipping normally means "overwriting" to me which is why I asked.


Yeah, I think it started getting used on the "haste and DK tanks" thread or whatever on the old forums; I just try to be consistent with that, and there's not really a better word for it that I've seen yet.
Edited by Anothriel on 11/16/2010 12:49 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
0
better word


Naw there probably isn't. Using clipping is equally acceptable to using Uptime for SD :P Neither means what you think they do, but its ok untill the community starts confusing whats meant by it.
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85 Undead Warrior
3595
Just to add my two cents, the way DK tanks now is designed to be almost identical to the way pallies and warriors work (don't know about bears).

You have comparable health pools and comparable mitigation (armor+DR from stance/presence/spec). These vary from class to class +/- less than 5%.

Then there is the Death Strike and block mechanic. Death strike heals for 30% of damage from the past 5 seconds. Block reduces damage by 30%. If you had block capped at 100% and the DK uses Death Strike every 5 seconds, the amount of damage requiring heals from the healer remains the same. It is damage of swing reduced by 30%.

Now here is the difference. A warrior and paladin only get hit for 70% of the incoming damage while the DK has to take all of it. In the five second window, a boss can hit the DK twice for full damage. Let's say that the total damage of two swings is exactly enough to kill the tank, be it DK, paladin or warrior. The DK would die from those two swings. The warrior and paladin would both take 70% of the damage, with 30% of their HP remaining. The healers would top off that health back to maximum and then we wait for the next two swings.

As a result of that situation, Death Strike was given the Blood Shield addition. Its purpose is to effectively add more maximum health to the DK so that he is able to survive long enough to use his Death Strike and have the block equivalent health boost.

Paladins have their own healing for some extra effective health and warriors have critical block to further reduce damage. A warrior with 100% block and 100% critical block takes only 40% of a swing. Those same swings that would kill a DK outright would leave him with 60% of his health still intact.

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85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
Just to add my two cents, the way DK tanks now is designed to be almost identical to the way pallies and warriors work (don't know about bears).

You have comparable health pools and comparable mitigation (armor+DR from stance/presence/spec). These vary from class to class +/- less than 5%.

Then there is the Death Strike and block mechanic. Death strike heals for 30% of damage from the past 5 seconds. Block reduces damage by 30%. If you had block capped at 100% and the DK uses Death Strike every 5 seconds, the amount of damage requiring heals from the healer remains the same. It is damage of swing reduced by 30%.

Now here is the difference. A warrior and paladin only get hit for 70% of the incoming damage while the DK has to take all of it. In the five second window, a boss can hit the DK twice for full damage. Let's say that the total damage of two swings is exactly enough to kill the tank, be it DK, paladin or warrior. The DK would die from those two swings. The warrior and paladin would both take 70% of the damage, with 30% of their HP remaining. The healers would top off that health back to maximum and then we wait for the next two swings.

As a result of that situation, Death Strike was given the Blood Shield addition. Its purpose is to effectively add more maximum health to the DK so that he is able to survive long enough to use his Death Strike and have the block equivalent health boost.

Paladins have their own healing for some extra effective health and warriors have critical block to further reduce damage. A warrior with 100% block and 100% critical block takes only 40% of a swing. Those same swings that would kill a DK outright would leave him with 60% of his health still intact.


I think you have a good start but need to look more into how each class works. Example, paladins get an extra 10% of blocked value via holy shield. Block is not up 100% of the time, so even block tanks are "spiky." Their total mitigation averages to about 32% at preraid gear levels last I heard (I'm sure others will correct me). Our (DKs) was ranging wildly from 35% to upwards of 50%, meaning even at our lowest, we were stronger than shield tanks, and we could improve via play while shield tanks could not.
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