Word of Glory Vs SotR

80 Undead Mage
3180
I was wondering for end game tanking which one generated more threat. I always figured that for multi-target tanking WoG was a must due to the fact that it generates threat on more than one target. However i would like to know what the threat generation on each one is in a mathmatical sense.
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90 Human Paladin
7490
There's a giant thread on WoG and the issues with it over at the tanking forums. Should still be on the first page if you wanted to check it out. Warning, some of the discussion is pretty byzantine.

Short answer is: Currently, for AoE tanking and even raid tanking once threat is established WoG is apparently the go-to finisher. That will likely be changed in the near future.
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80 Undead Mage
3180
I understand the talk, but there has been no deffinate arguement over the threat generation of word of glory. i wanna know the formula for which each generates threat, both single target and mutli target. Speculation is speculation, i want the facts so i can go forward in determining which i want to use and if i want to spec into the word of glory talents. Also , i would like to understand how the formulas work, so i can try to predict how they will scale, purely threat wise, at 85.
Edited by Rudyck on 11/16/2010 5:56 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
6435
There's a giant thread on WoG and the issues with it over at the tanking forums. Should still be on the first page if you wanted to check it out. Warning, some of the discussion is pretty byzantine.

Short answer is: Currently, for AoE tanking and even raid tanking once threat is established WoG is apparently the go-to finisher. That will likely be changed in the near future.


It is getting a slight nerf come Cata. Protector of the Innocent wont effect spells you cast on yourself.
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80 Undead Mage
3180
Ok, Well i know that the absorb shield must generate threat. Also, Do you know if this healing threat is increased by Righteous Fury? Is damage threat generated the same way?
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80 Undead Mage
3180
And If i heal a target that is not myself, lets say, a warlock. Is the threat still spread to all mobs around me, or does healing threat only apply if the mobs are targeting your target?
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85 Draenei Paladin
8075
Ok, Well i know that the absorb shield must generate threat. Also, Do you know if this healing threat is increased by Righteous Fury?


Yep, unless this was changed in 4.0.

Is damage threat generated the same way?


I don't think so, I remember paladins have an innate reduction (50%?) to healing threat to avoid heal tanking from way back in Vanilla. No idea if it still stands or not though but I can't imagine why it wouldn't.

And If i heal a target that is not myself, lets say, a warlock. Is the threat still spread to all mobs around me, or does healing threat only apply if the mobs are targeting your target?


Anything in combat with the warlock you will generate threat on, he doesn't need to have aggro.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7230
I don't think so, I remember paladins have an innate reduction (50%?) to healing threat to avoid heal tanking from way back in Vanilla. No idea if it still stands or not though but I can't imagine why it wouldn't.


I think this was removed with all the other threat modifiers like rogues doing 70%.
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80 Undead Mage
3180
The way i see it. even if it generates mediocre threat, if threat can still be held by using WoG it is clearly beneficial. In all fights, minus a DPS race, tanks survivability is pretty crucial and anything to allieviate the healers/healers mana pool seems to be beneficial. Staying alive for 10 more seconds is worth the dps increase you might experience because all other dps will make up for that damage.
I find WoG threat generation increasingly interesting especially given the huge crits i have heard of. 19k crits coming 9 seconds after each other from a tank is absurd. This means you generate 19k threat per WoG in terms of pure healing and then this is cycled through RF. IMO even if you hit for 19k with SotR it seems as if, purely hypothetically speaking, WoG is just as useful in holding threat.
Thank you guys for you imput ive had alot of help in my question.
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85 Human Paladin
6435
The way i see it. even if it generates mediocre threat, if threat can still be held by using WoG it is clearly beneficial. In all fights, minus a DPS race, tanks survivability is pretty crucial and anything to allieviate the healers/healers mana pool seems to be beneficial. Staying alive for 10 more seconds is worth the dps increase you might experience because all other dps will make up for that damage.
I find WoG threat generation increasingly interesting especially given the huge crits i have heard of. 19k crits coming 9 seconds after each other from a tank is absurd. This means you generate 19k threat per WoG in terms of pure healing and then this is cycled through RF. IMO even if you hit for 19k with SotR it seems as if, purely hypothetically speaking, WoG is just as useful in holding threat.
Thank you guys for you imput ive had alot of help in my question.


Healing threat only occurs if you actually heal someone. Overhealing doesn't generate any threat.
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80 Undead Mage
3180
i understand this, and it is why i put the words "hypothetically speaking" in my sentence.

On a related note however, i would like to know how much threat bubbles generate. Is there a flat rate for the spell itself, or is there a point by point system similar to heals.
Edited by Rudyck on 11/17/2010 3:27 PM PST
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95 Blood Elf Paladin
9855
For single target mobs SotR > WoG due to the fact that a SotR crit can go upwards of 35k whereas a WoG crit ive only seen go up to 20-22k, AOE packs i'm still not too sure about but I've watched Omen and noticed a usual 9k TPS without either spell cast, I threw SotR into the rotation and saw my TPS jump to 11k TPS, took it outta rotation and let TPS settle back to 9k and then started using WoG instead, my TPS only went up to about 9.8k

Now this test was done on Saurfang and only when i had his aggro cause i had to hold back when i had rune. i understand tho that WoG threat is based on the health healed so the threat WoG can give is really a shot in the dark cause i cant really tell my healers hey leave me at about 70% hp so i can do a threat test.

anyways thats my 2 cents
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80 Undead Mage
3180
Thanks Saireth this is what i was looking for.

Just for curiousity sake, are you speced into eternal glory?
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95 Blood Elf Paladin
9855
Yes I am, but my personal preference when it procs is to follow with SotR for the damage threat, in raid boss fights my healers are generally fast enuf to keep me towards 100% or get me back to 100% when i need to WoG to keep myself up so a second WoG wouldnt benefit me as much (except for the bubble but im still working on really making use of that talent)

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85 Human Paladin
6435
Yes I am, but my personal preference when it procs is to follow with SotR for the damage threat, in raid boss fights my healers are generally fast enuf to keep me towards 100% or get me back to 100% when i need to WoG to keep myself up so a second WoG wouldnt benefit me as much (except for the bubble but im still working on really making use of that talent)


If you want a really nice discussion on WoG vs ShoR
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1020802515?page=1

I'm currently using a WoG build just for laughs...and because we are just farming achievements right now. The damage reduction is crazy. I was MTing H 10 Marrowgar last night and I took much less damage then our equally geared OT.
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80 Undead Mage
3180
I have read that discussion and it wasn't what i was looking for, but thanks. i think my questions have been answered. WoG is getting a nerf anyway. Protector of the Innocent is getting nerfed. Also in Beta there is a nerf going around where eternal glory can not proc two times in a row. This happens about 9% of the time and takes away greatly from the effectiveness of the spell. 30 percent of the time you would be casting word of glory, you have no chance of getting a proc. I find these nerfs to be extremely frustrating because of the fact that it takes away from versatility and viability of some specs in pvp. I just rolled a paladin for the versatility in all aspecs of the game, but i will be really disappointed if i have no viability in pvp. The much needed nerf to holy paladins affects both prot and ret dramatically. And now another nerf in order to balance pve seems to gimp all specs of paladins badly. I am sad. cry cry cry.
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100 Human Paladin
14075
Here's the formulae for you. These are ASSUMING RIGHTEOUS FURY IS ALREADY UP. I have baked in the RF threat into my numbers. Healing threat is normally 0.5 per point healed, but with RF up, it's 1.0. Damage is normally 1.0 threat per damage, but it's 3.0 with RF up.

Variables:

M = number of mobs currently 'aware' of you (ie: in combat with you even if you have done nothing yet).
T = total threat generated
A = absorb amount
H = amount healed
D = damage dealt

Then:

T = {(1.0*H)/M} + {(0.5A)/M} + (3.0*D)


If you're only doing damage, then A and H are both = 0, which means T = 3.0D.
If you're only healing, then A and D = 0, which means T = H/M.
If you're only absorbing, then D and H = 0, which means T = 0.5A/M.
If you partially heal and partially absorb (the most common WoG case), then D = 0, which means T = {(1.0*H)/M} + {(0.5A)/M} .


Hope that clears things up.
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