Why do Ret Paladins have the longest ramp up?

85 Dwarf Paladin
3105
No funny business here. Let's get down to basics. Retribution has had a long time issue with skillful play, and the solution? Longer ramp up times to counter burst.

But with Cataclysm on the way, and the talent revamp in place, is all this ramp up really necessary?

Retribution at lower gear levels needs a maximum of 13.5 seconds to ramp up, and even if it's shorter it's all thanks to RNG and nothing that takes "skill" except when you hit 3 Holy Power. The only thing that makes this bearable right now is the fact that Art of War is terribly, terribly overpowered at lower levels. Which means for the most part, we're stuck waiting for a 20% chance to do something, that may or may not give you Holy Power.

Right now, Seal of Truth doesn't apply with abilities, taking 15 seconds or more to reach maximum effect, and that's if it isn't dispelled. To make matters worse, we will also have to put up Inquisition come Cataclysm.

Even if PVP combat becomes more back-and-forth, and less bursty, all this ramp-up is too much. Many classes have a much shorter ramp up time than this, and the only class that strikes me as similar is Feral DPS. But they have more flexibility and frequency while getting ramped up than Retribution does.

The solution? A number of things can be done to remedy this situation, coming down to 2 things: More controlled Holy Power generation, and Seal of Truth being applied by single-target melee attacks (because we want to keep Righteousness as the AoE seal).

An interesting concept is the one behind Impact/Fingers of Frost. A random chance to be able to do something reliable. Art of War could be changed to do less damage, but be guaranteed to gain 1 Holy Power if Exorcism hits.

Overall, there's a bit too much RNG going on. The mastery, Divine Purpose, and Art of War all come together to bring us a little nostalgia of the vanilla Seal of Command. So, any of the following can be considered:

    Art of War
    Your autoattacks have a 20% chance to make your next Exorcism instant, free and cause 100% additional damage and gain 1 Holy Power.

    Divine Purpose
    Your single target damaging abilities, Divine Storm, Holy Wrath, and Inquisition have a 20/40% chance to gain 1 Holy Power, except for Crusader Strike and Exorcism. In addition, your Divine Plea has a 50/100% chance to gain 1 Holy Power.

    Zealotry
    Instant Cast
    2 Minute Cooldown
    Your Judgement and Crusader Strike grant 1 additional Holy Power for 20 seconds. While this is active, your Judgement is refreshed after you consume 3 Holy Power.
Edited by Drunkadin on 11/10/2010 4:59 PM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
13650
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
3105
doesn't seem like theres much pvp ramp up time when i randomly get hit with 15k hammers in BGs. =p

Jokes aside, it probably has to do with having multiple long cooldown i-wins, or more accurately i-haveachances.
Mind you, I don't agree with Avenging Wrath and Hammer of Wrath being exclusive. It only opens up a can of worms, similar to what happened with Sudden Death and Execute.

If Avenging Wrath switched it up, and only allowed Hammer to be used with it while the target is above 80% health, then that seems much better. But I'd much rather see it gone and Zealotry brought up to par/made undispellable.

EDIT: And again, that's only after more damage balancing has gone through.
Edited by Drunkadin on 11/10/2010 5:20 PM PST
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85 Dwarf Paladin
3105
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.
I'm sorry to hear that. Totems are in need of baseline health scaling, but that's entirely up to the developers.

When I imagine Searing Flames, I imagine the totem ramping up faster and faster each cast, and applying an additional stack to whoever destroys it.
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100 Draenei Hunter
13150
15sec is not that bad considering BMs 27 second ramp up time with maybe 2-3s seconds of it actually being active.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
4710
Long ramp-up time is direct result of over-reaction to 3.0 burst issues.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
14810
Look on the bright side, at least you don't have Bandit's Guile. :)
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
9785
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us. Righteousness is awful damage and Justice that's just plain and simple pathetic. Seal of Truth isn't good for PvP yet we don't really have a good Seal were just kinda SoL in that department.

For PvP were pretty screwed once people have real health pools. For PvE fights with multiple targets completely screw us and in cata there are a lot.

I think it's time to re-evaluate what abilities can apply censure and hopefully Blizzard will take it into consideration sooner or later.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13650
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us.

True of any melee, not just you. Maelstrom Weapon is just as much of a @%%@%.

It may be true that your ramp up needs to be addressed (I know Enhancement's does), but that's not the source of the problem.
Edited by Matuk on 11/10/2010 6:34 PM PST
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
9785
15sec is not that bad considering BMs 27 second ramp up time with maybe 2-3s seconds of it actually being active.


Ranged is completely different you aren't chasing someone around trying desperately to auto attack them to death.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
9785
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us.

True of any melee, not just you. Maelstrom Weapon is just as much of a @%%@%.


Not really true of any melee, Who else has a dot that has to stack up to do proper damage? Warriors? Nope, DK's? Nope not those either. Rogues sure they have poison but definitely no where as frustrating as being Ret with crappy Seals.

However I don't disagree with you that being able to negate so much with so little needs attention.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13650
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us.

True of any melee, not just you. Maelstrom Weapon is just as much of a @%%@%.


Not really true of any melee, Who else has a dot that has to stack up to do proper damage? Warriors? Nope, DK's? Nope not those either. Rogues sure they have poison but definitely no where as frustrating as being Ret with crappy Seals.

However I don't disagree with you that being able to negate so much with so little needs attention.

Enhancement has the same issue with Searing Totem, and it feels the way it's always felt for Shaman: an uphill battle that the devs don't think our issue is an actual issue.
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At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us.

True of any melee, not just you. Maelstrom Weapon is just as much of a @%%@%.


Not really true of any melee, Who else has a dot that has to stack up to do proper damage? Warriors? Nope, DK's? Nope not those either. Rogues sure they have poison but definitely no where as frustrating as being Ret with crappy Seals.

However I don't disagree with you that being able to negate so much with so little needs attention.

Enhancement has the same issue with Searing Totem, and it feels the way it's always felt for Shaman: an uphill battle that the devs don't think our issue is an actual issue.



While Enhancement may need help...what does this have to do with Ret? Sure, it's not necessarily good design unless that ramp-up one shots people...and in that case thats not really good design either. However...did you really need to play the "Boo-hoo my class has it worse" card? It's not exactly mature...Make your own thread for Enhancement Shaman issues.

On topic, as far as ramp up goes, it's kinda like I said. It has to hit really hard, else it's kinda sillly. The AoE Ramp up is a bit dumb...I understand the point, but Divine Storm didn't hit near as hard as Templar's Verdict. On the other hand, I really enjoy our single target ramp up. In fact my DPS went up significantly on melee friendly, non target switch fights, just because I don't have to bother with consecration any more.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
4710
I was curious what could be worse than auto-attack-to-5-stack... now I know.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13650
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us.

True of any melee, not just you. Maelstrom Weapon is just as much of a @%%@%.


Not really true of any melee, Who else has a dot that has to stack up to do proper damage? Warriors? Nope, DK's? Nope not those either. Rogues sure they have poison but definitely no where as frustrating as being Ret with crappy Seals.

However I don't disagree with you that being able to negate so much with so little needs attention.

Enhancement has the same issue with Searing Totem, and it feels the way it's always felt for Shaman: an uphill battle that the devs don't think our issue is an actual issue.



While Enhancement may need help...what does this have to do with Ret? Sure, it's not necessarily good design unless that ramp-up one shots people...and in that case thats not really good design either. However...did you really need to play the "Boo-hoo my class has it worse" card? It's not exactly mature...Make your own thread for Enhancement Shaman issues.

On topic, as far as ramp up goes, it's kinda like I said. It has to hit really hard, else it's kinda sillly. The AoE Ramp up is a bit dumb...I understand the point, but Divine Storm didn't hit near as hard as Templar's Verdict. On the other hand, I really enjoy our single target ramp up. In fact my DPS went up significantly on melee friendly, non target switch fights, just because I don't have to bother with consecration any more.

Not playing that card, I'm saying you're not alone. Not alone in being ignored, and not alone in having mechanics issues that Blizzard seems to think is perfectly fine. You've said multiple times that only Ret Pallies have to put up with issues like this, which is just plain ignorant. If you're going to try to get Blizzard to do something about your class, may want to get your facts straight.

We have to put up with the exact same mechanics, and it's getting annoying to see that Blizzard thinks it's a good idea that will work for multiple classes.
At least for you guys it ain't a totem doing it, but that's another issue entirely.
Edited by Matuk on 11/10/2010 7:52 PM PST
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But thats just it. I personally never said Ret only had those issues. And the smart Paladins...hell the smart players know it too. The ones saying "Ret is the worst class in the game" aren't being very uh...logical, to put it politely.

At any rate, I can appreciate that we're in the same boat. If nothing else, what other suggestions could they do, to lower Paladin ramp up, without making it too whack-a-mole like it was previously?

I'd say Seal of Truth ramp up, for a start. There's no point to 5 Stacks anymore, the nerfed the hell out of it, so a quick seal ramp up for mediocre damage seems more fair then a long ramp up for mediocre damage. Pre-patch Seal of Truth, I could kinda understand, I was hitting for some nice numbers with those Judgement crits. But it doesn't do 9k Crits now...it does between 5-7k while still only stacking through auto-attack...Just kinda...out dated?
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
9785
But thats just it. I personally never said Ret only had those issues. And the smart Paladins...hell the smart players know it too. The ones saying "Ret is the worst class in the game" aren't being very uh...logical, to put it politely.

At any rate, I can appreciate that we're in the same boat. If nothing else, what other suggestions could they do, to lower Paladin ramp up, without making it too whack-a-mole like it was previously?

I'd say Seal of Truth ramp up, for a start. There's no point to 5 Stacks anymore, the nerfed the hell out of it, so a quick seal ramp up for mediocre damage seems more fair then a long ramp up for mediocre damage. Pre-patch Seal of Truth, I could kinda understand, I was hitting for some nice numbers with those Judgement crits. But it doesn't do 9k Crits now...it does between 5-7k while still only stacking through auto-attack...Just kinda...out dated?


What Ret really needs is another Strike or maybe 2 so we can just scrap this awful Seal system that is currently a huge crutch and overall is a flawed design.

There really isn't another simple answer, They didn't want Seal damage to be so high so they neutered it completely which in turn hurt us in a number a ways. That should be left in a different thread though.

I think the Seal system has to go.
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