Why do Ret Paladins have the longest ramp up?

100 Human Paladin
12055
-
Edited by Buhamut on 11/10/2010 9:08 PM PST
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
9785
Too much anger in your post, Need to be nice and gentle to get a reply from Blizzard about anything but when you show your anger and frustration your not likely to get ever get a response no matter how correct you are.
Edited by Requital on 11/11/2010 10:38 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
13120
it's not that bad if we also keep in mind that mastery allows us to jumpstart our ramp-up on proc, potentially cutting it down by half or more.
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100 Human Paladin
12055
I really wish you hadn't quoted me.
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100 Human Paladin
13120
you really aught to not post while in the grips of blind rage, then. :p
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85 Human Paladin
7905
it's not that bad if we also keep in mind that mastery allows us to jumpstart our ramp-up on proc, potentially cutting it down by half or more.



now if only we could get a mastery that doesnt make a clunky system even clunkier
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100 Tauren Shaman
11935
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us.

True of any melee, not just you. Maelstrom Weapon is just as much of a @%%@%.


Not really true of any melee, Who else has a dot that has to stack up to do proper damage? Warriors? Nope, DK's? Nope not those either. Rogues sure they have poison but definitely no where as frustrating as being Ret with crappy Seals.

However I don't disagree with you that being able to negate so much with so little needs attention.

Enhancement has the same issue with Searing Totem, and it feels the way it's always felt for Shaman: an uphill battle that the devs don't think our issue is an actual issue.



While Enhancement may need help...what does this have to do with Ret? Sure, it's not necessarily good design unless that ramp-up one shots people...and in that case thats not really good design either. However...did you really need to play the "Boo-hoo my class has it worse" card? It's not exactly mature...Make your own thread for Enhancement Shaman issues.

On topic, as far as ramp up goes, it's kinda like I said. It has to hit really hard, else it's kinda sillly. The AoE Ramp up is a bit dumb...I understand the point, but Divine Storm didn't hit near as hard as Templar's Verdict. On the other hand, I really enjoy our single target ramp up. In fact my DPS went up significantly on melee friendly, non target switch fights, just because I don't have to bother with consecration any more.

Not playing that card, I'm saying you're not alone. Not alone in being ignored, and not alone in having mechanics issues that Blizzard seems to think is perfectly fine. You've said multiple times that only Ret Pallies have to put up with issues like this, which is just plain ignorant. If you're going to try to get Blizzard to do something about your class, may want to get your facts straight.

We have to put up with the exact same mechanics, and it's getting annoying to see that Blizzard thinks it's a good idea that will work for multiple classes.
At least for you guys it ain't a totem doing it, but that's another issue entirely.


I just wanted to make a quote pyramid.

You've never been on the SC2 forums I take it! :D
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100 Human Warrior
14735
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us.

True of any melee, not just you. Maelstrom Weapon is just as much of a @%%@%.


Not really true of any melee, Who else has a dot that has to stack up to do proper damage? Warriors? Nope, DK's? Nope not those either. Rogues sure they have poison but definitely no where as frustrating as being Ret with crappy Seals.

However I don't disagree with you that being able to negate so much with so little needs attention.

Enhancement has the same issue with Searing Totem, and it feels the way it's always felt for Shaman: an uphill battle that the devs don't think our issue is an actual issue.



While Enhancement may need help...what does this have to do with Ret? Sure, it's not necessarily good design unless that ramp-up one shots people...and in that case thats not really good design either. However...did you really need to play the "Boo-hoo my class has it worse" card? It's not exactly mature...Make your own thread for Enhancement Shaman issues.

On topic, as far as ramp up goes, it's kinda like I said. It has to hit really hard, else it's kinda sillly. The AoE Ramp up is a bit dumb...I understand the point, but Divine Storm didn't hit near as hard as Templar's Verdict. On the other hand, I really enjoy our single target ramp up. In fact my DPS went up significantly on melee friendly, non target switch fights, just because I don't have to bother with consecration any more.

Not playing that card, I'm saying you're not alone. Not alone in being ignored, and not alone in having mechanics issues that Blizzard seems to think is perfectly fine. You've said multiple times that only Ret Pallies have to put up with issues like this, which is just plain ignorant. If you're going to try to get Blizzard to do something about your class, may want to get your facts straight.

We have to put up with the exact same mechanics, and it's getting annoying to see that Blizzard thinks it's a good idea that will work for multiple classes.
At least for you guys it ain't a totem doing it, but that's another issue entirely.


I just wanted to make a quote pyramid.

You've never been on the SC2 forums I take it! :D


Quote pyramids are not exclusive to SC2 forums.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
11935
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us.

True of any melee, not just you. Maelstrom Weapon is just as much of a @%%@%.


Not really true of any melee, Who else has a dot that has to stack up to do proper damage? Warriors? Nope, DK's? Nope not those either. Rogues sure they have poison but definitely no where as frustrating as being Ret with crappy Seals.

However I don't disagree with you that being able to negate so much with so little needs attention.

Enhancement has the same issue with Searing Totem, and it feels the way it's always felt for Shaman: an uphill battle that the devs don't think our issue is an actual issue.



While Enhancement may need help...what does this have to do with Ret? Sure, it's not necessarily good design unless that ramp-up one shots people...and in that case thats not really good design either. However...did you really need to play the "Boo-hoo my class has it worse" card? It's not exactly mature...Make your own thread for Enhancement Shaman issues.

On topic, as far as ramp up goes, it's kinda like I said. It has to hit really hard, else it's kinda sillly. The AoE Ramp up is a bit dumb...I understand the point, but Divine Storm didn't hit near as hard as Templar's Verdict. On the other hand, I really enjoy our single target ramp up. In fact my DPS went up significantly on melee friendly, non target switch fights, just because I don't have to bother with consecration any more.

Not playing that card, I'm saying you're not alone. Not alone in being ignored, and not alone in having mechanics issues that Blizzard seems to think is perfectly fine. You've said multiple times that only Ret Pallies have to put up with issues like this, which is just plain ignorant. If you're going to try to get Blizzard to do something about your class, may want to get your facts straight.

We have to put up with the exact same mechanics, and it's getting annoying to see that Blizzard thinks it's a good idea that will work for multiple classes.
At least for you guys it ain't a totem doing it, but that's another issue entirely.


I just wanted to make a quote pyramid.

You've never been on the SC2 forums I take it! :D


Quote pyramids are not exclusive to SC2 forums.

It is as far as Blizzard forumites are concerned. :)

I'd always wondered why Blizzard had never upgraded their forums for it and, well, now they have! w00t

Too much anger in your post, Need to be nice and gentle to get a reply from Blizzard about anything but when you show your anger and frustration your not likely to get ever get a response no matter how correct you are.

Anyways, on-topic-ish: this.

Take it from a Shaman, being angry does NOT make them improve your class!
Evidence: bus shock.
Edited by Matuk on 11/11/2010 12:28 AM PST
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85 Worgen Rogue
3990
Mutilate says hi.

as does new combat.
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90 Orc Warlock
14350
At least your ramp up can't be stomped by a wand.


True but it can be stopped by most every class in PvP just by snaring us.

True of any melee, not just you. Maelstrom Weapon is just as much of a @%%@%.


Not really true of any melee, Who else has a dot that has to stack up to do proper damage? Warriors? Nope, DK's? Nope not those either. Rogues sure they have poison but definitely no where as frustrating as being Ret with crappy Seals.

However I don't disagree with you that being able to negate so much with so little needs attention.

Enhancement has the same issue with Searing Totem, and it feels the way it's always felt for Shaman: an uphill battle that the devs don't think our issue is an actual issue.



While Enhancement may need help...what does this have to do with Ret? Sure, it's not necessarily good design unless that ramp-up one shots people...and in that case thats not really good design either. However...did you really need to play the "Boo-hoo my class has it worse" card? It's not exactly mature...Make your own thread for Enhancement Shaman issues.

On topic, as far as ramp up goes, it's kinda like I said. It has to hit really hard, else it's kinda sillly. The AoE Ramp up is a bit dumb...I understand the point, but Divine Storm didn't hit near as hard as Templar's Verdict. On the other hand, I really enjoy our single target ramp up. In fact my DPS went up significantly on melee friendly, non target switch fights, just because I don't have to bother with consecration any more.

Not playing that card, I'm saying you're not alone. Not alone in being ignored, and not alone in having mechanics issues that Blizzard seems to think is perfectly fine. You've said multiple times that only Ret Pallies have to put up with issues like this, which is just plain ignorant. If you're going to try to get Blizzard to do something about your class, may want to get your facts straight.

We have to put up with the exact same mechanics, and it's getting annoying to see that Blizzard thinks it's a good idea that will work for multiple classes.
At least for you guys it ain't a totem doing it, but that's another issue entirely.


I just wanted to make a quote pyramid.

You've never been on the SC2 forums I take it! :D


Quote pyramids are not exclusive to SC2 forums.

It is as far as Blizzard forumites are concerned. :)

I'd always wondered why Blizzard had never upgraded their forums for it and, well, now they have! w00t

Too much anger in your post, Need to be nice and gentle to get a reply from Blizzard about anything but when you show your anger and frustration your not likely to get ever get a response no matter how correct you are.

Anyways, on-topic-ish: this.

Take it from a Shaman, being angry does NOT make them improve your class!
Evidence: bus shock.


aff ramp up is pretty poopy
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11345
you really aught to not post while in the grips of blind rage, then. :p


It's kind of amusing that people don't have the right to be frustrated. Not just Ret but anybody; I only really see it being a problem when you have multiple brimming-drool-cup lunacy posts derailing a thread.

In any case.

At this point, it actually worries me more that Ret will struggle along the bare bottom edge of viability and hence not get any significant help going forward. If we're going to be bad, I would rather that we totally crash and burn.
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94 Troll Shaman
9695


It's kind of amusing that people don't have the right to be frustrated. Not just Ret but anybody; I only really see it being a problem when you have multiple brimming-drool-cup lunacy posts derailing a thread.

I believe Blizzard's point about that (which I agree with btw) is that being frustrated doesn't grant you the right to spew vitriol. You aren't allowed to verbally abuse people in RL just because you're frustrated, and the same applies here.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
9785
OK, let me try and clarify a few things i have read in this thread

first:
every classes ramp up time in pve and pvp has increased i believe bliz is using this as a balancing tool

second:
yes, hammer of wrath + wings is op on live, but it hits for almost the exact same amount on beta in lvl 85 pvp gear, and thats when people have over 100k hp, and its dispellable and dispels are op atm

third:
ret on the beta is looking good, your not going to be able to 1v2 casters, your not going to be a walking army, but atm no class is, classes are now supposed to fill their role (melee, ranged, healer) in pvp. pvp is looking good in cata.


Ret on beta is not looking I have no idea where you are getting your information but after Arena and playing in Rated BG's Ret has a long ways to go before it reaches good.

You can consider it's viable if you are playing with friends or people that know you but no one is going to go out of their way to find a Ret for any team.

Now what is this ramp up time that every class has? If ramp up is pressing a button sure they have ramp up but no one suffers as much ramp up for so little return. Ret has a choice use a crappy seal that does crappy damage and has no ramp up or use a pve seal with a huge ramp up and pray the person you are playing is bad and stands still.
Edited by Requital on 11/11/2010 10:45 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
12055
Too much anger in your post, Need to be nice and gentle to get a reply from Blizzard about anything but when you show your anger and frustration your not likely to get ever get a response no matter how correct you are.


Probably, and thanks!
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100 Dwarf Paladin
10600
Definitely concerned at this point, and not just for PvP. The issues with our chance based combat are spilling over into PvE as well. Loosing a significant chunk of your damage when you cant attack the boss is bad enough. Never knowing what your next attack will be out of 6-7 possibilities is just awful, especially when you have to manage the spacial awareness that raiding demands. Combine that with a long ramp up time....suffice to say I am worried.

The new ret reminds me uncomfortably of a more complicated BC ret. Combat system almost completely dependent on chance to be good? Check. Huge issues with dispellability that shut down our ability to be effective in PvP? Check. Bring nothing in particular that a holy paladin couldn't bring? Check. The difference is now we also have to manage holy power and a long ramp up time. This isn't a good comparison. BC ret was horrible, both in design choices and balancing issues. I had hoped we were moving away from that model.

So, like I mentioned above, I am concerned. The fact that GC is beginning to clam up as cata inches closer is also worrisome. I realize he has duties beyond just bringing information to us, but it definitely smacks of the bad old days where problems were just left to sit and moulder and people trying to help felt like they were being ignored (which, at the time, we were). I dont think thats the case now, but it would be nice to at least hear "We're working on it." And I am sure ret paladins are not the only ones feeling like this.


Edited by Dstonehand on 11/11/2010 12:25 PM PST
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