Grand Crusader Design Thoughts

90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Am I missing something? ShoR is getting nerfed? If this is in regards to MMO-Champs tooltip thing that they datamined a few weeks back, that was just a tooltip being funky is all. If there is an incoming nerf to ShoR, you may be on to something, I dont know. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say CS and Judge would still outweigh AS, due to it accruing HP and keeping up HS (not like it'll fall off regularly, but still). Just my .02


ShoR and Shield Slam are 60% of attack power in at least SOME build.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27401648032&pageNo=2&sid=1#28
Edited by Slashlove on 11/14/2010 12:03 PM PST
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85 Tauren Paladin
6505
Am I missing something? ShoR is getting nerfed? If this is in regards to MMO-Champs tooltip thing that they datamined a few weeks back, that was just a tooltip being funky is all. If there is an incoming nerf to ShoR, you may be on to something, I dont know. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say CS and Judge would still outweigh AS, due to it accruing HP and keeping up HS (not like it'll fall off regularly, but still). Just my .02


ShoR and Shield Slam are 60% of attack power in at least SOME build.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27401648032&pageNo=2&sid=1#28


Oh. Not sure how I missed this, but now I'm sad lol :( Thanks for the link though!
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100 Human Paladin
13675


Oh. Not sure how I missed this, but now I'm sad lol :( Thanks for the link though!


According to some reports, it has had base damage added, so it actually does the same damage or even a little more while under 0 Vengeance, but with max vengeance it does less than it did under max vengeance before.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
SWC
11255
the best suggestion i've seen was to make the actual GC proc that you get last 4 or 5 seconds and while it's up your next avengers shield would generate one holy power.
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100 Human Paladin
13675
the best suggestion i've seen was to make the actual GC proc that you get last 4 or 5 seconds and while it's up your next avengers shield would generate one holy power.


That's too long. That allows you to push it back and keep it in rotation. It should be a 2-3 second buff like it is now. 3 seconds is probably good. You fail to react quickly to the proc, too bad. That's how I'd prefer it.
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80 Dwarf Paladin
10380
The difference between someone using an AS priority rotation and someone not prioritizing it is 200 DPS... I don't think that Blizzard cares about 200 DPS. It's not a big enough difference so that a new person hitting AS whenever it comes up is going to be at a disadvantage compared to someone who has gone and read the theorycrafting.

ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW 8712 0 0.0
AS>ShoR>CS>J>HW>Cons 8549 426 1.1
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Just wanted to say (playing a paladin and a lock) that paladins are not the only ones who have this issue. Nightfall procs also give a big flashy animation but it should only be prioritized over drain soul.

Though the proc itself is almost always consumed by our filler >.>

That said i dont think they will do the 1Hpower buff because they dont want SotR and Inquisition up at the same time.

What if SD was tied to AS instead of Judgement?
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100 Human Paladin
13775
That said i dont think they will do the 1Hpower buff because they dont want SotR and Inquisition up at the same time.


Someone on maintankadin did the math, and you would have to generate holy power something like 3 times faster than you can currently before it becomes a dps gain to use Inquisition with SotR. You can already get Inquisition up with SotR, but it's a dps loss to do so because you are missing out on SotR hits to buff yourself with Inquistion.
Edited by Bravehearth on 11/15/2010 6:43 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
11980
Just wanted to say (playing a paladin and a lock) that paladins are not the only ones who have this issue. Nightfall procs also give a big flashy animation but it should only be prioritized over drain soul.

Though the proc itself is almost always consumed by our filler >.>

That said i dont think they will do the 1Hpower buff because they dont want SotR and Inquisition up at the same time.

What if SD was tied to AS instead of Judgement?


I'd dislike that. Proc based on proc. Right now I've mastered the timing on when to use/save spells, and the only mistake I seem to still make is sometimes casting ShoR with less than 3 HP, even though I have Power Auras telling me when it's up :(
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Just wanted to say (playing a paladin and a lock) that paladins are not the only ones who have this issue. Nightfall procs also give a big flashy animation but it should only be prioritized over drain soul.

Though the proc itself is almost always consumed by our filler >.>

That said i dont think they will do the 1Hpower buff because they dont want SotR and Inquisition up at the same time.

What if SD was tied to AS instead of Judgement?


I'd dislike that. Proc based on proc. Right now I've mastered the timing on when to use/save spells, and the only mistake I seem to still make is sometimes casting ShoR with less than 3 HP, even though I have Power Auras telling me when it's up :(


I hate when that happens.

My issues is misjudging my distance from mobs and repeated spamming SotR and wondering why its not consuming my Holy power.

I didnt have this type of issue prepatch. Just lately it seems like im constantly too far away.
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100 Human Paladin
13775
What if SD was tied to AS instead of Judgement?


If AS applied sacred duty they would need to increase the chance of applying sacred duty to compensate. They wouldn't want to make AS always apply SD because then every 15 seconds (and at the start of every fight) you would have a garanteed crit on SotR. The issue then becomes now you have a chance to use an ability that has a chance to apply a buff. They could, however, tie SD to always proc when you use Avengers Shield within so many seconds after a grand crusader proc. They would then need to adjust the proc chance of grand crusader of course.

The nice thing about that is that where you plug in the Grand Crusader AS varies over time. I'll give some examples of how that could be interesting.

So lets take the current prot rotation of CS > X > CS > X > CS > SotR

Where X is currently prioritized as Judgement > AS > HW > Consecrate (I realize it varies depending on aoe and if you have hallowed ground talented). This ends up working out into another way of writing the rotation since Judgement is up every time the rotation "reset".

So it then becomes CS > Judge > CS > X > CS > SotR

Now we see that we are always doing judgement in the first X position, and everything else gets plugged into the second X position.

If Sacred Duty was applied by Avenger's Shield when used after Grand Crusader, it would have the following effects. Lets look at several second of the rotation.

00.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 3.0) - 1 holy power
*** Grand Crusader ***
01.5 Avenger's Shield (usable again at 16.5)
*** Sacred Duty ***
03.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 6.0) - 2 holy power
04.5 Judgement (usable again at 12.5)
06.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 9.0) - 3 holy power
07.5 Shield of the Righteous (100% crit from sacred duty) - 0 holy power

09.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 12.0) - 1 holy power
10.5 Holy Wrath (usable again at 25.5)
12.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 15.0) - 2 holy power
13.5 Judgement (useable again at 21.5)
15.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 18.0) - 3 holy power
16.5 Shield of the Righteous - 0 holy power

18.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 21.0) - 1 holy power
19.5 Avenger's Shield (usable again at 34.5)
21.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 24.0) - 2 holy power
*** Grand Crusader ***
22.5 Avenger's Shield (usable again at 37.5)
*** Sacred Duty ***
24.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 27.0) - 3 holy power
25.5 Shield of the Righteous (100% crit from Sacred Duty) - 0 holy power

27.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 30.0) - 1 holy power
28.5 Judgement (usable again at 36.5)
30.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 33.0) - 2 holy power
31.5 Holy Wrath (usable again at 46.5)
33.0 Crusader Strike (usable again at 36.0) - 3 holy power
*** Grand Crusader ***
34.5 Avenger's Shield (usable again at 49.5)
*** Sacred Duty ***
36.0 Shield of the Righteous (100% crit chance) - 0 holy power
...

As you can see, instead of the rotation being CS > J > CS > X > CS > SotR, the rotation turned into:

CS > AS > CS > J > CS > SotR >
CS > HW > CS > J > CS > SotR >
CS > AS > CS > AS > CS > SotR >
CS > J > CS > HW > CS > AS > SotR > ...

A couple interesting things happen here. Judgement no longer maintains a fixed position in the rotation since you prioritize Grand Crusader procs over Judgement. The really interesting thing is in the last cycle where we actually pushed back the entire rotation because Grand Crusader procced on the 3rd Crusader Strike. In that case, we wanted to make sure we hit Avenger's Shield so our next SotR would be a crit rather than to delay it for the next cycle.

If my times, etc are off I apologize, I went through that fairly quick. A better math person would need to figure out the appropriate proc chance on Grand Crusader to give SotR a pseudo-50% crit chance like it has now. The damage on avenger's shield would then need to be adjusted up or down depending on if you increase or decrease the grand crusader proc chance.
Edited by Bravehearth on 11/15/2010 6:47 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
13775
I suppose one issue with what I posted is that it tacks on yet another thing to
Avenger's Shield. It would be used as a pulling tool, ranged add pickup, interrupt, and on top of that being used to proc sacred duty.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
9360
Edit: I will admit the proc display does seem to make procs feel like they have to be used "NOW!"


I was much the same way when I first tried post-patch tanking on my paladin alt.

I'd see the graphic pop up, and think I had a mere two seconds to hit Avenger's Shield. Took a while before I realized that the graphic is simply there to tell you that the cooldown is gone.
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100 Human Paladin
13775
Edit: I will admit the proc display does seem to make procs feel like they have to be used "NOW!"


I was much the same way when I first tried post-patch tanking on my paladin alt.

I'd see the graphic pop up, and think I had a mere two seconds to hit Avenger's Shield. Took a while before I realized that the graphic is simply there to tell you that the cooldown is gone.


The problem is that their design was originally to break up the paladin rotation so it's not so static. Grand Crusader was supposed to work like Sword and Board for a warrior...which under most circumstances you do do hit it right away (I suppose shield block timing comes into play there, though I don't play a warrior tank). With Grand Crusader the only thing it accomplishes is giving Avenger's Shield a pseudo-shorter cooldown. You always plug it into the exact same position in the rotation.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
0
Edit: I will admit the proc display does seem to make procs feel like they have to be used "NOW!"


I was much the same way when I first tried post-patch tanking on my paladin alt.

I'd see the graphic pop up, and think I had a mere two seconds to hit Avenger's Shield. Took a while before I realized that the graphic is simply there to tell you that the cooldown is gone.


The problem is that their design was originally to break up the paladin rotation so it's not so static. Grand Crusader was supposed to work like Sword and Board for a warrior...which under most circumstances you do do hit it right away (I suppose shield block timing comes into play there, though I don't play a warrior tank). With Grand Crusader the only thing it accomplishes is giving Avenger's Shield a pseudo-shorter cooldown. You always plug it into the exact same position in the rotation.

^ Which was the reason I think they went to the 3 sec cool down on CS/HotR too soon. The design wasn't perfect from my perspective, but I think there were other options to be explored. . .But even back then when I messing around on Beta - the reverse problem was that AoE and Single Target felt too similar.

Admittedly, you can (and do) run into situations where AoE and Single target feel similar now . . . but it's not all the time. Burst Threat for the right number of enemies just matters more than IQ uptime for AoE packs so skipping over a HotR or so in favor of procced AS can be the right way to play. I think I would like it if HotR hit a little less hard though. But I'm a fan for threat being harder in general across the board.

Sorry Rambling. Point is . . . I think there were pros and cons to both design attempts.
Edited by Breenn on 11/16/2010 10:14 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
13775
Oh I agree there are definately pros and cons with both. Really with the 4.5 second crusader strike, Grand Crusader felt more dynamic. When it was dropped down to the 3s cooldown is when it became so static. Not that I want to go back to the 4.5s crusader strike by any means. I don't mind it the way it is honestly, but I can see where the rotation feels a bit static to some. And grand crusader might feel counter intuitive in that it's a threat loss single target to use it when it procs rather than plug it in the right place in the rotation.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
0
Also, I enjoyed reading your big post further up about a different possible iteration on the mechanics. As an actual option, I wouldn't like it if I was in GC's shoes for the reason that it puts too much stress on one ability. I think I'd rather SD proc came down to 30% perhaps. I'm not sure on the math, but it seems if the DPS is so tight to each other that hitting AS on proc is CLOSE to optimal, a drop in SD percentage should lessen the DPS importance of rushing to the ShoR over using your procs - even with adding some cool down dead space.
Edited by Breenn on 11/16/2010 10:47 PM PST
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85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
I'm confused... Doesn't all of the main Tankadin abilities have like 3-4 tie-ins to them? Why should AS be different?
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100 Human Paladin
13775
Also, I enjoyed reading your big post further up about a different possible iteration on the mechanics. As an actual option, I wouldn't like it if I was in GC's shoes for the reason that it puts too much stress on one ability. I think I'd rather SD proc came down to 30% perhaps. I'm not sure on the math, but it seems if the DPS is so tight to each other that hitting AS on proc is CLOSE to optimal, a drop in SD percentage should lessen the DPS importance of rushing to the ShoR over using your procs - even with adding some cool down dead space.


Yeah I was mainly just bored and had an idea spark in my head after reading someone else toss out the idea of sacred duty being tied to avenger's shield. It would pile a lot of food on that one plate.
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100 Human Paladin
13775
I'm confused... Doesn't all of the main Tankadin abilities have like 3-4 tie-ins to them? Why should AS be different?


Right you are correct that several abilities have tie-ins. SotR/Inquisition/WoG (talented) proc holy shield, Crusader Strike has a chance to proc Grand Crusader, and generates holy power, currently judgement gives us mana regen and can proc sacred duty, and avenger's shield is a multipurpose pulling tool, range add pickup, interrupt, silence, and a sort of cleave (3 target aoe).

My idea above (which was just out of boredom mainly), would be to shift sacred duty from Judgement, to Avenger's Shield, but ONLY if it's an avenger's shield used shortly after grand crusader procs. Essentially it would move one of the tie-ins from judgement over to avengers' shield, which is already an ability we use for a lot of different things. The good thing is that it would make us want to prioritize grand crusader procs, even to the point of pushing back the rotation.

I can see a lot of pros and cons, and a lot of it comes down to personal tastes in how the rotation works...and I can also see a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" view of the idea also.
Edited by Bravehearth on 11/17/2010 12:31 AM PST
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