Sorry if this is really, really stupid but...

85 Tauren Paladin
6700
Right, so I'm reading the WoW books starting with The Ancient War and I'm currently on The Demon Soul after reading the first book in a couple of days.

I'm really sorry if this is blasphemy of any kind and I will gladly be corrected if so;

Does Tyrande Whisperwind seem...Paladin-esque to you? Wearing Plate in battle? Counting on the Light (Moon Light I'm assuming still counts) for assistance?

I'm just noticing that the Sisters of Elune have very strong Paladin-esque attributes about them. Being able to bring peace to those in battle, healing allies in the middle of a fight.

Perhaps it's what the developers have painted a picture of paladins, Versus what I'm reading. Maybe I just think that they are paladins and I'm foolishly hoping.

Another question; Are Blood Elfs really 'stealing' the light's power? Didn't some Naaru-thing back in BC bless Liadrin with the power of the light to teach it to her people?

Edited by Practical on 11/14/2010 1:09 AM PST
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
It's true, I've always thought that the lack of Night Elf Paladins is ridiculous, especially after they started interacting with the Humans.

Blood Elves no longer steal the light; their powers are now granted to them by the Naaru-charged Sunwell.
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85 Tauren Paladin
6700
It's true, I've always thought that the lack of Night Elf Paladins is ridiculous, especially after they started interacting with the Humans.

Blood Elves no longer steal the light; their powers are now granted to them by the Naaru-charged Sunwell.


Are the Sisters of Elune supposed to appear more priest-esque then in that regard when it comes to the game?

I mean just the elaborate description of Tyrande herself seems so Paladin I squirmed with the idea of being a Nelf Paladin.
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90 Human Paladin
11055
Well the biggest thing is that let's take paladins in our traditional fantasy setting.

Traditionally a paladin is essentially just a role, not a class.

Where does the term paladin come from? It's derivative of the term "Palatine", which was a hill significant to the Roman Empire. The original "palatines" (singular palatinus) were essentially just retinues and bodyguards in the Western Roman Empire, an auxiliary unit that was essentially meant to mean that they were in service to the Palatine Hill.

The term Paladin ultimately came from the hands of Charlamagne. His most loyal lieutenants were considered the Paladins.

Due to his heavy impact on French Culture (what being the King of the Franks) when the term for "paladins" came along in D&D they merged the chivalric tales of the Paladins of Charlamagne with the healing powers of a line of French Kings (you'd recognize them from the Da Vinci Code). It was believed they could "lay hands" on people to heal wounds.

Thus comes the D&D and generic fantasy concept of a paladin, who fulfilled the role of a holy fighter who lives a life of absolute servitude and piety to a higher cause. Typically this is to a deity, but it could be equally applicable to an ideal or less commonly to a sovereign, the latter being unideal due to the fallibility of national leaders.

Paladins themselves had a variety of titles...Knight Errants, Ghost Hunters, Wyrm Slayers, etc. etc., the term paladin simply being how WE defined them.

Enter World of Warcraft. In this, paladins are a clearly defined concept that are more than just a basic term to describe a specific role. Paladins are defined as much from the order they are derived from. In Warcraft's particular case, they were raised as a sect of Warrior-Priests during the Second War, not unlike the Knights Templar were a specific warrior-monk sect.

As a consequence there may have been people before Uther that were paladin like, but the concept of paladinhood and its tenants did not exist until the Second War.
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85 Tauren Paladin
6700
Thank you for the explination!

I have been as of late feeling terrible about the fact that I'm a Belf Paladin, while I know this sounds completely ludicrous I don't feel like the class is really a "class" unless I am the race that it fits best in.

Ironic as you come from my very first server; Gorgonnash :)
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85 Tauren Paladin
6700
Honestly, Night elves could easily be Paladins in the form of the Priestesses of Elune deciding to put on their plate and aid the battlefield on the battlefield - because they would get their Light powers from Elune doesn't make it any less silly than Tauren getting their powers from the Sun - or the second eye of the earth mother.


This was my thought process. I thought Tauren being Paladins was probably one of the worst things to have ever happened; not because I just don't like the way they cast, but because I'm afraid just don't understand their lore. It just seems it was slapped on for S&G's.
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90 Human Paladin
11055



This was my thought process. I thought Tauren being Paladins was probably one of the worst things to have ever happened; not because I just don't like the way they cast, but because I'm afraid just don't understand their lore. It just seems it was slapped on for S&G's.


I tend to find it retarded, because you don't have chivalric monastic knights in a tribal American Indian society.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11265
The main reason why the priestesses of Elune aren't paladins is mainly that they use a heavy amount og ranged combat. Within the Warcraft universe, Paladins are pretty much explicitly defined as heavily armored, melee, holy warriors. As such, a lightly armored melee holy warrior wouldn't be a paladin (I guess they'd be a monk) and a heavily armored, ranged holy warrior wouldn't be a paladin (they'd be something else, I guess a holy counterpart to a shadow hunter or dark ranger).
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
7170
This was my thought process. I thought Tauren being Paladins was probably one of the worst things to have ever happened; not because I just don't like the way they cast, but because I'm afraid just don't understand their lore. It just seems it was slapped on for S&G's.


I tend to find it retarded, because you don't have chivalric monastic knights in a tribal American Indian society.


I think the problem with the Tauren paladins isn't even so much cultural as much as it is the way it's been implemented in said culture.

Imo, Tauren paladins can work on a conceptual level. To me, they seem like the primary Horde race who would dedicate themselves to what they'd perceive as a higher power in the way Alliance paladins do. Were they to put their belief fully in a being of great power (such as An’she or Mu’sha) and fight for their cause in the same way an Alliance paladin would put their faith in the Light, I could see Tauren working as paladins.

The problem isn't this, however; as I said, it's how they have actually been implemented. Instead of having them dedicated to a higher cause, they present the Sunwalkers as an 'alternative form of druidism' that stems from the sun instead of the moon.

This didn’t sit well with me from the beginning, mainly because it implies the sun is a source of energy for the Holy Light and because the spells have nothing to do with druidic magic. From my perspective, the sun has always represented heat and fire. In a druidic sense, the sun should be something that is implemented in a way that displays the sun’s role in nature, like the new druid spell Solar Beam, or sun-like concepts such as photosynthesis.

The thing is, Tauren paladin spells do not reflect the druidic nature of the sun. Rather, they have the exact same spells as proper Holy Light-wielding paladins, with the exact same name and effect for each spell. It seems inconsistent and a bit weird that a Tauren paladin is using a spell called ‘Crusader Strike,’ when tauren have no concept of what a crusader is, and ‘Blessing of Kings’ when tauren themselves don’t worship or have kings.

Again, I’m not saying the concept of Tauren paladins can’t work at all. The problem is that the druidic edge of the Sunwalkers feels more implied than presented, and we have to severely suspend our disbelief to accept it. I guess you could equivalent it to Night Elf priests and Troll priests who – while having similar abilities to Light-believing priests like humans, trolls and draenei – actually get their power from a different source, and have their in-game spells similar for the sake of simplicity and as not to confuse people who play priests.
Edited by Killchrono on 11/14/2010 8:01 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
11265
I'm really getting tired of people thinking that tauren paladins and priests are druids.

The philosophy and theology behind the groups were created by a druid. Existentialism was created by Soren Kierkegaard, a devout Christian, but that doesn't make Existentialism a Christian philosophy. Similarly, just being started by a druid does not make it "druidic".

Being a tauren priest or paladin has very little to do with nature and absolutely nothing to do with plants, animal life, the emerald dream or cenarius. You should also know that Tauren Priests were originally supposed to be in the game (and were only removed at a very late stage of the beta), because, honestly, their culture fits with priests well enough even without the sun worship.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
18175
Basically, the thought process of the tauren who went on to form the Sunwalkers went like this:

*Tauren beliefs center around the Earthmother, whose eyes are the sun and the moon.
*Tauren druids are all about the moon, because they learned it via the elves who revere the moon.
*Shouldn't the tauren have an organization that centers around the sun as well to balance it out?
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I'm really getting tired of people thinking that tauren paladins and priests are druids.

The philosophy and theology behind the groups were created by a druid. Existentialism was created by Soren Kierkegaard, a devout Christian, but that doesn't make Existentialism a Christian philosophy. Similarly, just being started by a druid does not make it "druidic".

Being a tauren priest or paladin has very little to do with nature and absolutely nothing to do with plants, animal life, the emerald dream or cenarius. You should also know that Tauren Priests were originally supposed to be in the game (and were only removed at a very late stage of the beta), because, honestly, their culture fits with priests well enough even without the sun worship.


How does a Native American Tribal culture fit with priests?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
7170
I'm really getting tired of people thinking that tauren paladins and priests are druids.

The philosophy and theology behind the groups were created by a druid. Existentialism was created by Soren Kierkegaard, a devout Christian, but that doesn't make Existentialism a Christian philosophy. Similarly, just being started by a druid does not make it "druidic".

Being a tauren priest or paladin has very little to do with nature and absolutely nothing to do with plants, animal life, the emerald dream or cenarius. You should also know that Tauren Priests were originally supposed to be in the game (and were only removed at a very late stage of the beta), because, honestly, their culture fits with priests well enough even without the sun worship.


It's not so much the order being founded by a druid so much as the way they explain how they attain their powers. The way I understood it was that they believe they got their powers directly from the sun, but that seems like a cheap way of explaining how the Taurens can wield the Light. The sun =/= the Holy Light, they shouldn't be able to harness the powers of the sun and be able to cast Light spells. If I've completely misunderstood this, I genuinely ask you to correct me.

To me, the Light should be an entirely spiritual thing. Rather than saying they get their powers from the sun, if they worshiped the sun and drew their power from their faith in the sun. in the way Alliance paladins put their faith in the Holy Light, I'd totally buy it. I just don't like the druidic slant they've put on the Sunwalkers.

That said with my problems about the Sunwalkers, I don't have as much of a problem with Tauren priests. I remember that Tauren used to have priests in Vanilla beta, and it seems right that they have some kind of spiritual guide in relation to their beliefs in the land, much like the trolls have their Loa and the Night Elves have the spiritual guides of Elune. It's only the explanation for the Sunwalkers I don't like.

How does a Native American Tribal culture fit with priests?


The same way that they fit in with troll Loas and Priestesses of Elune: they act as spiritual guides for their people. Priests seem to be a class that all use the same spells as a matter of in-game convieniance, but they do that for simplicity. In terms of lore all priests are similar in the relevance they have to their respective societies. They just have different sources for their faiths and beliefs, and they may manifest in ways which are different to that of a Light-worshipping priest. They simply use Light spells so not to confuse people who play or group with priests of different races.

Another thing to take into consideration: just because Tauren are based on Native American culture doesn't mean they have to mimic every aspect of that culture perfectly. So long as when introducing new classes they give an adequite reason of it fitting into said culture (which is my problem with tauren paladins), the culture is allowed to be written whatever way the writers want.
Edited by Killchrono on 11/14/2010 6:54 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
11265
>implying that there's only one singular native american culture in the first place



In any case, my stance on the Tauren priests/paladins has been and will continue to be that it is simply faith and willpower that gives them their power. The "sun" is not the source of their power, but simply something they focus on in order to give them that faith. Humans focus on a philosophy, nelves focus on the moon, belves focus on the sunwell, trolls focus on their loa, and gnomes focus on the medical profession. It's all about focusing on some "thing", but I maintain that the source is the self.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
7170
>implying that there's only one singular native american culture in the first place


Well, that too.

*is Australian, probably shouldn't be talking about Naitive American culture*

In any case, my stance on the Tauren priests/paladins has been and will continue to be that it is simply faith and willpower that gives them their power. The "sun" is not the source of their power, but simply something they focus on in order to give them that faith. Humans focus on a philosophy, nelves focus on the moon, belves focus on the sunwell, trolls focus on their loa, and gnomes focus on the medical profession. It's all about focusing on some "thing", but I maintain that the source is the self.


As long as that's the case, I have no problem with this. My only other hope is that they do something to emphasise their powers come from faith, and not literally the sun itself.
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ok, first for Tauren Sunwalkers, All paladins use the same spells in game merely so that people are not picking their race based on the spells they get (Priests a long time ago), and so people are not confused when they try the same class on the opposite faction. Second, their power for both druids and priests/paladins comes from the worship of the earthmother, but the focus of their worship and power is either the moon or the sun respectively. While, though I may not be correct, their shamans are for spiritual guidance, and get their power from the earthmother as a whole. And their whole race worships the Earthmother, even the druids pay some attention to the other eye.
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