Any plans to make Ret Mastery useful?

85 Human Paladin
6055
I know EJ probably already did this, but I ran some numbers comparing Haste vs Mastery. This was a simple number run: calculating only TV, CS and Melee dmg assuming every TV and CS (with hand of light procs) could be used every time they were ready (as in no GCD delays).

Point for point, at every level 80-85 at almost every combination of the two abilities totaling 1000 rating, crit gives overall more damage. It increases CS speed, which in turn gives more TVs. Haste does not give as many TVs point for point versus mastery, but the extra CS and Melee strikes do more total damage.

At Level 80 there is actually a slight DPS increase when it was about 900/100 haste/mastery, but that all disappears at 85. It's also interesting to note that at 85 if I keep lowering mastery below the 8% base to trade for haste (point for point) DPS continues to increase.

This doesnt take into account other procs, other haste benefits, or the clash of HoL procs on the GCD rotations, so I'm gonna say that actual damage could actually favor Haste more. Last I heard the lvl 85 ability increases strength for each melee swing. This widens the advantage of haste over mastery.

I'm not asking for a fix now, but at least hoping that Ret Mastery is on the table for discussion.
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85 Human Paladin
6055
It's one thing to have stats that favor PVP or PVE, its another to have it built in a lot of 85 PvE gear. They might as well slap resil on the gear if Mastery is for PvP.

Blizzard introduced mastery points as a major knob to fine tune balancing faster. The problem is that PvE users avoid it like the plauge. If they crank it to 11 because ret PvE is lacking, then it will become OP in PvP. If they do the opposite and turn it down because PvP Ret is OP, then raiders will suffer.

Again, there's nothing wrong with making certain stats tuned to PvP or PvE. the problem with mastery is that it's going to be built in with a lot of PvE gear when we dont want it as it is.

Most understand that this plus the RNG factor, makes HoL a very bad mechanic for Mastery. My question is where is this on the priority list to be addressed, or is it even on the list of things to be looked at?
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
Well, they want mastery to be a desirable stat. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the secondary stat they want us to be stacking most next to resilience.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
Well, they want mastery to be a desirable stat. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the secondary stat they want us to be stacking most next to resilience.


the OP is talking about pve


I know. But if I hadn't said that, someone else would have gone "HURRR YOU SAYING MASTERY SHOULD BE BETTER THAN RESILIENCE IN PVP".

You know it. Don't deny it.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
so....

reforge haste for pve (at least until 3 sec cs cd)

reforge mastery for pvp

does mastery seriously have to be best for both pve/pvp?


I'm not really sure mastery would be best for PvP either. Crit scales way better than mastery does.

Our mastery is terrible. Period.


Hell, I've reforged haste, and I'm doing awesome.
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90 Draenei Paladin
17760

It's not free. It replaces another attack that would have used that GCD. You only gain the difference between the TV damage and the attack it replaced. As of right now, mastery should always be reforged in PVE. Hit/expertise (pre-cap), crit, and haste (pre or post soft cap) are all much better than mastery.


It's not quite that simple. It's the difference between the extra TV and the cost of delaying the rest of your cooldowns. For example, the global you spend using TV rather than CS would not be calculating the difference between the two but rather pushing whatever else you have on queue back. You wouldn't start calculating the difference between attacks until a proc begins pushing abilities completely off the queue, namely Holy Wrath and Consecration. And even then you'd still be calculating lowered effective dps of whatever you're pushing back.

So at the lower end of the gear spectrum when you have frequent open GCDs, the mastery should have more value than later on when you reach a full GCD scenario, or again when you've pushed most of the lower priority attacks (holy wrath and consecration) out of the average rotation.
Edited by Snozberries on 11/15/2010 9:58 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
8435
Its just so strange, as far as mastery goes. Its the only mastery that uses a global. Its the only mastery I have seen that directly enables an ability (correct me if I am wrong here), causing a clash between the ability we would have used and the one we did use. And its really the only mastery I have seen thats actively bad.

Its bad for several reasons. First, its bad because its just not very powerful. Stacking and reforging mastery will only give you around 5-8% extra chance to proc hand of light. The other reason its bad is that it cannot be powerful without being overpowered. It sucks, until you get to the tipping point where it becomes so powerful your doing nothing but spamming finishing moves (a bit like armor pen, except there is not as much of a middle ground). Even in PvP, its value is questionable. Its nice for extra uses of word of glory or templar's verdict, but its proc rate is fairly low even with extra mastery, and it doesn't come into play at all if your cant get in melee range. At least crit applies to your heals, judgement, and exorcism.

Of all the problems ret has, I cant fathom why they have left this one alone.
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90 Draenei Paladin
17760
please make sure you say this is about pve only

cuz if you think mastery is bad for pvp then you are ill-informed and havent pvp'ed at all since 4.0

mastery>haste in almost all situation in pvp
mastery>crit in almost all situations in pvp

atm ret has such little uptime on targets before snared/cc'ed bursted down, we have to choose our battles wisely and LAotL allows us to do just that, and mastery makes the little uptime we have on targets that much more potent

Haste and Crit make the little uptime we have on targets that much more potent, too. Aside from more chances to choose between burst and heals, I don't see where it's trumping either of the other secondary stats.

Overall pvp is harder to model mathematically, but I'd be surprised to see proccing HoL more often trumping criting with all your attacks or hitting/casting faster when it's mathematically inferior by a big margin in pve.
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85 Tauren Paladin
9805
I think part of Mastery's power for us is going to be its interaction with IQ; if I can refresh IQ for "free" from Mastery procs, then that is less time I have to worry about that "retard buff", and more time I can spend doing damage, depending on when it happens relative to IQ's current duration.

It's not just a free TV, it's a free IQ too, though I'm still dubious of IQ as a buff we have to maintain in the first place. It seems to be their way of keeping Holy Damage part of our spec (class) without giving it too much power without a fairly significant ramp-up time (Mastery procs excluded, natch).

I just wish there was a better way for them to get us to want to press our Holy damage-based abilities; heck, a better way would be to increase holy damage done based on the number of Censure stacks. >.>

Then again, I'm not a fan of SoT stacking; it either needs to go to 3 stacks or remain at 5 and allow all of our melee attacks to proc it. >.<

Anyway, I think the core is fairly decent, but the polish isn't quite up to par (imo).
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