Ret paladin AoE, a better fix please

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100 Human Paladin
13560
Hi,

I spend about 90% of my wow life doing instances I outgear. It's the nature of the beast when it comes to warcraft as the instances stay the same but the rewards increase as new tiers are put in the game. With that in mind, I really feel like paladin aoe has taken a massive hit. I'm all for separating out single target vs multi-target, but it seems like the multi target aspect was not really put back in.

A lot of people will say, but in cataclysm aoe doesn't matter because instances will be hard. For sure I agree with that, until we have a higher ilvl average and the instances once again become trivial.

I use heroic magister's in TBC as an example - the people with sub gear or average gear had a hard time with that instance, were forced to CC their pulls and take their time. Then people like me in sunwell gear blew through it aoe'ing everything down. I see the same thing happening in cataclysm.

With that being said, is it possible to re-examine divine storm? It seems to be under performing with the revamp it had on beta according to some parsing of player much better than me. Again, 90% of my play time revolves around going through farmed content. I'd like to be able to have a sufficiently satisfying damage output in that situation and currently I feel like I don't/can't.

On live, I spec as a protection paladin and use my ret gear to get my 8-9k dps in heroics. I do think that is a little backwards. I also want to point out that I think single target dps is really good. I'm doing about 12k dps on non-icc bosses, even with the incredibly high amount of RNG build into ret.
82 Blood Elf Paladin
4040
You're talking about the 60% damage, no HP consumption, 4.5 second CD change on beta?
80 Troll Rogue
9245
If storm is the HP builder how about make holy wrath consume holy power and be an aoe as well?

So that way rets can have a full blown AOE rotation.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
15590

Here's what I would have done:
1. Left Divine Storm alone.
2. Made CS hit two additional targets when Seal of Righteousness was active (added to the Seals of Command talent).
3. Removed Divine Purpose and allowed Judgement (and possibly one other ability) to generate Holy Power.

In other words, I'd have focussed on addressing the problems that were actually present.


It is kind of sad seeing our once signature ability nerfed to the point of obscurity in Cataclysm. This seems like it will continue to be the case unless DS also generates holy power like CS currently does, but even so will have limited use at best.

Tbh I have never been that concerned with AoE dps, because it is inconsequential for most of the boss encounters, which is what I am concerned with. Sure its nice to have, but I'd rather do superior single target dps than lolAoE. That being said I would much rather have the old DS back and have it replace HW as one of the fillers in our rotation. It would help out our burst and survivability in PvP (DS smart heal for 25% of damage done). The one problem I would see with this is that it would add more physical damage into our rotation and make the already lackluster Inquisition 'buff' even more trivial.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
11080
They just need to let divine storm proc seals again. Hopefully, that will tip the scales that it's either equal to or over takes CS/TV+SoR on three targets.

The problem with the current DS is that it's not really practical, even if the mobs live longer. If your resorting to AoE, there are enough mobs up that won't pummel the tank into nothingness quickly; however, they do deal damage and problems will arise if you don't burn them down quickly. My hunch is that by the time mobs live long enough for the current DS to be worthwhile, will be the time that having three up that long will result in either a wipe or near wipe for a group that doesn't out gear the mobs. It's effectiveness is also greatly limited on fights where horde mobs might get randomly spawned on a fight that is mostly single target (think crazy cat lady).

Honestly, I think Zealotry, SoJ and mastery should get more work on them before we get some sort of AoE finisher to take the place of DS. Sure it simplifies the AoE rotation but there are areas of the spec that are in a greater need of dev attention than making our AoE rotation more interesting. Besides it's still going to be more interesting than most caster AoEs and the devs are supposedly toning down the role of AoE anyways.
100 Draenei Paladin
19025
If storm is the HP builder how about make holy wrath consume holy power and be an aoe as well?

So that way rets can have a full blown AOE rotation.


If you're going to get into that, we might as well make Hammer of the Righteous baseline. The beta versions more or less do the same thing with slightly different scaling anyway. Further homogenization between prot and ret, hoooo!

Ret is in a really odd place as far as rotation goes, still. So instead of doing the exact same rotation for single target or AoE with the only difference being the filler, we do the exact same rotation with the only differences being using DS instead of CS and less finishers. It addresses the need for on demand AoE that doesn't blow, sure, but at the cost of even more holes in the rotation.

Hell, I wouldn't mind swapping GotAK with HotR and Divine Storm for Inquisition in terms of swapping talents and baseline abilities if that's what it took for each spec to have enough depth in their rotations. Honestly, what is GotAK in a meaningful manner for any spec besides prot? Or Inq for prot or holy?
Edited by Snozberries on 11/16/2010 10:35 AM PST
100 Human Paladin
13560
Glad I'm not the only one who sees a major major problem here.

Hopefully we get some kind of comment soon enough.
90 Human Paladin
8855
If storm is the HP builder how about make holy wrath consume holy power and be an aoe as well?

So that way rets can have a full blown AOE rotation.


If you're going to get into that, we might as well make Hammer of the Righteous baseline. The beta versions more or less do the same thing with slightly different scaling anyway. Further homogenization between prot and ret, hoooo!

Ret is in a really odd place as far as rotation goes, still. So instead of doing the exact same rotation for single target or AoE with the only difference being the filler, we do the exact same rotation with the only differences being using DS instead of CS and less finishers. It addresses the need for on demand AoE that doesn't blow, sure, but at the cost of even more holes in the rotation.

Hell, I wouldn't mind swapping GotAK with HotR and Divine Storm for Inquisition in terms of swapping talents and baseline abilities if that's what it took for each spec to have enough depth in their rotations. Honestly, what is GotAK in a meaningful manner for any spec besides prot? Or Inq for prot or holy?


How bad is GAoK for Ret?
100 Human Paladin
13560
If storm is the HP builder how about make holy wrath consume holy power and be an aoe as well?

So that way rets can have a full blown AOE rotation.


If you're going to get into that, we might as well make Hammer of the Righteous baseline. The beta versions more or less do the same thing with slightly different scaling anyway. Further homogenization between prot and ret, hoooo!

Ret is in a really odd place as far as rotation goes, still. So instead of doing the exact same rotation for single target or AoE with the only difference being the filler, we do the exact same rotation with the only differences being using DS instead of CS and less finishers. It addresses the need for on demand AoE that doesn't blow, sure, but at the cost of even more holes in the rotation.

Hell, I wouldn't mind swapping GotAK with HotR and Divine Storm for Inquisition in terms of swapping talents and baseline abilities if that's what it took for each spec to have enough depth in their rotations. Honestly, what is GotAK in a meaningful manner for any spec besides prot? Or Inq for prot or holy?


How bad is GAoK for Ret?


its about a 250 dps increase if you have 100% uptime with it. It used to be a 50 dps increase until they buffed it. It's still pathetically useless.
100 Draenei Paladin
19025

How bad is GAoK for Ret?


I've read that it's a ~200-300dps increase, but that's not really the point. It' just another burst cooldown, when we really don't need a third. I haven't followed how it is for holy extensively, but it seems like just another heal for them. Prot's the only spec that really gets a significant change out of it.
100 Dwarf Paladin
10600
Frankly, if you dont like the switch from Divine Storm as a finisher to something we can use on demand, your in the minority here. The old divine storm was barely used at all, even in beta AOE situations. It took long enough to ramp up to the necessary 3 HP needed that by the time you got there, you might as well use TV and do more damage. Now at least we can lead off with it and get some real use out of it.

That said, divine storm definitely feels a touch weaker than it should be as AOE, and the lack of a real AOE finisher is annoying at times. It would be nice to see a slight buff to DS's damage and HP generation. After that....I'm not sure. Turn consecrate into a finishing move? Thats kinda cool actually, but you would have to make sure it did decent damage at all levels of HP. In any event, reverting the DS change is not a great plan. It went from not being worth a talent point, to something thats at least useful when the situation arises.
100 Dwarf Paladin
10600

Let me get this straight, you want a damage over time spell to become a finisher when you were just complaining about never being able to cast Divine Storm as a finisher??? You want an AOE to start ticking after you stack 3 holy power and you think it would be an improvement?


It was a thought. Right now consecrate uses so much mana and has such a long cooldown you hardly cast it unless your desperate (which says something when we try to use it every AOE fight). Converting the cost to HP would be an interesting change of pace, and would negate the need for the massive cool down and mana cost. Also, if the damage change from finisher divine storm to on-demand divine storm is any indication, we could probably get a lot more bang for our buck in doing so.

But you are right in that making this change, it would probably wind up in the same situation that divine storm was in. Without a better way to generate HP (in general, and especially in AOE fights) any AOE finisher will have this problem.
100 Human Paladin
13560
if DS doesn't generate holy power, then I don't really like this change very much. The damage is still underwhelming, and it will be at the cost of our finishers now.

Even if did generate holy power, it would still fall into the same trap protection paladins have with HP now. After 3 HP, in a pack pull, there is nothing to use as a finisher. I put on word of glory because there is nothing else to press. There is no real decision making going on. The whole purpose of the paladin change was to give us choice, but now that my muscle memory has solidified with the new rotations, I feel like I have the same amount of choice as I did with the old FCFS rotation.
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