Ancestral Swiftness needs to go away

100 Goblin Shaman
19265
Having a single class so superior at speed causes a disparity that will make shaman very overpowered for raiding, BGs, and arena in terms of survivability and ability to do DPS and healing.


No it won't, and it wouldn't have anything to do with the topic at hand even if it did.
Please explain how having a class move instantly at 30% (without repercussion) is not overpowered and not what is being discussed.
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11 Gnome Mage
0
Please explain how having a class move instantly at 30% (without repercussion) is not overpowered and not what is being discussed.


It's a shapeshift without abilities. We can't attack while moving at 30%. To add to that, Enhancement has no other gap closing ability, and Elemental is the weakest spec among all casters for mobile damage (save, of course, when Spiritwalker's Grace is up).

Ancestral Swiftness Ghost Wolf makes up for those problems - Ghost Wolf in conjunction with snare abilities to catch up to things (or move around between different mobs, etc) for Enhance, and replacing the damage while on the move with the opportunity to resume your normal rotation quicker after getting where you're going for Elemental.


But regardless, that's something that exists no matter if the talent is changed or not. Just a question of if it should exist before level 82.
Edited by Strawberry on 11/16/2010 10:10 PM PST
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83 Undead Rogue
3360
Please explain how having a class move instantly at 30% (without repercussion) is not overpowered and not what is being discussed.


It's a shapeshift without abilities.


you realize that is a good thing right? druids would love to have full access to their entire arsenal

it is for that reason (out of a few) that resto always does so well out of the druid specs, as their arsenal is the least limited by shapeshifting.
Edited by Rýot on 11/16/2010 10:15 PM PST
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11 Gnome Mage
0
you realize that is a good thing right? druids would love to have full access to their entire arsenal


Well, that's a different topic all together that gets into some high-level design for druids and shamans. I was specifically referring to the fact that you can't use any spells or abilities while in ghost wolf form, so it's not like we just have a 30% movement speed with no downsides, as the poster I was responding to was implying.

You have to choose between moving faster or being able to do anything while moving. That's the downside. If you add the need to stand still for 2 seconds before you start moving, the advantages are downed out entirely by the downside, which turns into a reason to just never use the spell at all.
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85 Goblin Shaman
12305
Resto druids are able to make good use of their travel form because they have several hots which can keep ticking while they run.

Elemental shaman can only shock and totem and then instant shift. Everything else requires you to stop and cast.

If you think shaman being able to ghost wolf to start moving 30% faster is a huge balance problem, I don't know why you haven't made several billion posts about travel form or blink or portal.
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
Please explain how having a class move instantly at 30% (without repercussion) is not overpowered and not what is being discussed.


How is it overpowered?
Edited by Mayeli on 11/16/2010 11:51 PM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
13435
Having a single class so superior at speed causes a disparity that will make shaman very overpowered for raiding, BGs, and arena in terms of survivability and ability to do DPS and healing.


No it won't, and it wouldn't have anything to do with the topic at hand even if it did.
Please explain how having a class move instantly at 30% (without repercussion) is not overpowered and not what is being discussed.

Because when Druids go to 30% speed indoors, they can also Sprint, they can also Leap, they can also Stealth, they can also use their melee DPS abilities, they can still cast Barkskin (without leaving form!)

For a Shaman to do *anything* except move in GW form, we have to leave it. Even totems.

The fact of the matter is that Shaman *ABSOLUTELY CANNOT MAKE USE OF GHOST WOLF without this talent.
Thus the spell is useless, until you get that talent. The talent should be baseline, or else this spell is considered useless, for the entire CLASS.
How can ANYBODY believe that this is perfectly fine?!

The following NEEDS to be done:

# 1. Make instant-cast Ghost Wolf baseline.

# 2. MERGE Toughness and Ancestral Swiftness into Ancestral Fortitude - For 2 points, it will increase run speed by 15%, HP by 10%, and will reduce the duration of all snare effects on you by 30%. It will replace the tier 2 spot that Ancestral Swiftness was at, making it accessible to Resto and Ele.

You can even replace the "reduce snare effect duration" bit with the current extra bonus to GW of not being snared while in Ghost Wolf.

Did you know that Ghost Wolf's anti-snare does NOT work on most PvE snare effects? It's FRUSTRATING!
If that particular bonus to the Ghost Wolf form is meant to be ONLY for PvP, it should be what's talented, NOT the instant-cast.
Edited by Matuk on 11/17/2010 1:19 AM PST
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100 Goblin Shaman
19265
Please explain how having a class move instantly at 30% (without repercussion) is not overpowered and not what is being discussed.


How is it overpowered?
Just because you are incapable of reading an entire thread doesn't mean I should have to reiterate what is already said. For the sake of argument though:
In PVE situations: Instant ghost wolf means that shaman get out of dangerous situations more quickly thus reducing the healing requirement on them and increasing the DPS uptime. This is not insignificant with the increased necessity for healer efficiency of mana. Both the time to kill of a boss and reduced damage reduce healer mana consumption. While this has been the case in previous expansions it was always limited to outdoor bosses which were usually far and few in between. The change to make ghost wolf indoors has made this ability so substantially overpowered that in the hands of a good raider it will trivialize many boss abilities.

In BGs: Be able to avoid snares while carrying a flag and having a 30% speed boss for the duration of the flag carry will mean that shaman are the go-to flag carriers. Combining the snare reduction with the utility of our totems (earthbind, tremor, and grounding) means that a large majority of other class CC abilities are either completely or mostly mitigated. It doesn't just apply to carrying a flag either, because the same case is made for closing the gap to continue to DPS or escaping harmful situations.


Because when Druids go to 30% speed indoors, they can also Sprint, they can also Leap, they can also Stealth, they can also use their melee DPS abilities, they can still cast Barkskin (without leaving form!)
Wait, when did this happen? Oh, it didn't. Using a strawman to justify something is the weakest form of debate. Your point is completely invalidated because your proposed situation will not happen.

To add to that, Enhancement has no other gap closing ability
They get Ancestral Swiftness very early in leveling to compensate for it.
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7 Tauren Shaman
0
i gave up on my shaman, you guys should too. they've been so stubborn on totems and ancestral swiftness and no swords and a lot of other problems, just play a good class like rogue or mage for dps, or druid/priest to heal
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
Ancestral Swiftness is fine. It's Totemic Reach that needs to be dropped off the cliff.
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83 Orc Shaman
4430
Because when Druids go to 30% speed indoors, they can also Sprint, they can also Leap, they can also Stealth, they can also use their melee DPS abilities, they can still cast Barkskin (without leaving form!)
Wait, when did this happen? Oh, it didn't. Using a strawman to justify something is the weakest form of debate. Your point is completely invalidated because your proposed situation will not happen.


What he is referring to can in fact happen, he is referring to a feral druid switching to cat form, not travel form, in an instance or indoors. Yes, they do enjoy all of those benefits as feral. However, even as resto or balance when you switch to cat form indoors you can still sprint, stealth, barkskin, and use the cat form attacks (though I don't know why you would). No, as a resto or balance druid you won't have the 30% increased movement indoors in cat form, but you can still use the other abilities mentioned above. Whether or not you want to factor that into your discussion is up to you.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13435
Because when Druids go to 30% speed indoors, they can also Sprint, they can also Leap, they can also Stealth, they can also use their melee DPS abilities, they can still cast Barkskin (without leaving form!)
Wait, when did this happen? Oh, it didn't. Using a strawman to justify something is the weakest form of debate. Your point is completely invalidated because your proposed situation will not happen.


What he is referring to can in fact happen, he is referring to a feral druid switching to cat form, not travel form, in an instance or indoors. Yes, they do enjoy all of those benefits as feral. However, even as resto or balance when you switch to cat form indoors you can still sprint, stealth, barkskin, and use the cat form attacks (though I don't know why you would). No, as a resto or balance druid you won't have the 30% increased movement indoors in cat form, but you can still use the other abilities mentioned above. Whether or not you want to factor that into your discussion is up to you.

At level 85, in a real PvP Druid spec, they will have the 30% increased speed. It's a tier 1 talent.

Please explain how having a class move instantly at 30% (without repercussion) is not overpowered and not what is being discussed.


How is it overpowered?
Just because you are incapable of reading an entire thread doesn't mean I should have to reiterate what is already said. For the sake of argument though:
In PVE situations: Instant ghost wolf means that shaman get out of dangerous situations more quickly thus reducing the healing requirement on them and increasing the DPS uptime. This is not insignificant with the increased necessity for healer efficiency of mana. Both the time to kill of a boss and reduced damage reduce healer mana consumption. While this has been the case in previous expansions it was always limited to outdoor bosses which were usually far and few in between. The change to make ghost wolf indoors has made this ability so substantially overpowered that in the hands of a good raider it will trivialize many boss abilities.

In BGs: Be able to avoid snares while carrying a flag and having a 30% speed boss for the duration of the flag carry will mean that shaman are the go-to flag carriers. Combining the snare reduction with the utility of our totems (earthbind, tremor, and grounding) means that a large majority of other class CC abilities are either completely or mostly mitigated. It doesn't just apply to carrying a flag either, because the same case is made for closing the gap to continue to DPS or escaping harmful situations.

All those same things that make Ghost Wolf "OP" as you say, will apply to a Druid, especially in the case of flag carrying, and here's a news flash: They also have Sprint.
When they're outdoors, which happens for a big portion of flag carrying: They can go Travel Form, which is even FASTER than Ghost Wolf.

Oh, big deal: the Druid can't heal when they go into Cat Form. Here's a news flash: SHAMAN CAN'T HEAL FROM GHOST WOLF EITHER, IT CANCELS THE FORM

So in other words, what you're saying is, none of these things are OP for Druids (Because hey, it's perfectly okay for Druids to be OP, AMIRITE?!) but when it comes to Shaman, the class that is currently the ONLY one labeled as a turret, it's waaaaay too OP, when *all* we are asking for is for this one talent that will be present in literally every single Shaman spec at level 85, a talent that is REQUIRED to make this spell actually USEFUL, to be made baseline.


If Druids had to talent into instant-cast Travel Form, or if instant-cast Cat Form was a T2 Feral talent, you can bet they would !%@@! about it.

This is ALL we want done for this one talent:
# 1. Make instant-cast Ghost Wolf baseline.



# 2. MERGE Toughness and Ancestral Swiftness into Ancestral Fortitude - For 2 points, it will increase run speed by 15%, HP by 10%, and when in Ghost Wolf you cannot be snared below normal speed. It will replace the tier 2 spot that Ancestral Swiftness was at, making it accessible to Resto and Ele.

Enhancement Shaman will likely still talent into that new talent, and that's okay, because our spec doesn't lose anything for doing so. 15% move speed is a HUGE DPS boost for any melee spec.

But for the sake of Ele and Resto... they don't need to. They can now consider alternative builds, maybe Resto can even go grab Elemental Precision to make FI and TC worth using.
Elemental can now go down into the RESTO tree for their PvP spec and grab Nature's Guardian, instead of being FORCED into Enhancement to make it possible to run away.
Edited by Matuk on 11/17/2010 11:22 AM PST
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77 Tauren Druid
630
wtb baseline instant ghostwolf already
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