PvP gear vs PvE gear

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90 Dwarf Paladin
15470
Those are not the situations the game is balanced around. If there's a class that had a 10s cast time spell that could 1-shot someone then it would be balanced around the fact that its a TEN SECOND CAST. How easily you can pull off your moves, despite the CC you're getting hammered with, is a defining property of a good, or bad, PvP spec and is what they should spend their time working on.

I could get my ass handed to me when an Arcane Mage is sitting on a Demolisher freecasting. When I meet the guy in an open field I have the means and the tools to stop him ramping up the damage and kick his ass. He also has some means and tools to facilitate his ability to ramp up damage. How we use those various abilities, and at what specific moments, has a greater affect on the outcome than the raw damage we'd be pumping out if we were standing still spamming each other with stuff. THAT is how PvP works. Your silly scenarios of throwing two people face to face and expecting the numbers to be balanced exactly as you expect is not reality.


I am not sure in how many ways I can say that you are missing the point.

Here is another way to think about what I am trying to say:

On my mage, in PvP spec and gear, with a set best case scenario rotation I do 140K dmg averaged over 5 fights.
Best case scenario rotation is having target frozen all the time while ice lancing it, as far as I could reproduce on the dummy.
With that rotation, it takes me 27sec to execute and come to a point where I can no longer freeze the target.
So, 140K dmg in 27sec with PvP gear and spec.
If I switch to PvE gear, without switching specs, I do 198.9K dmg average over 5 fights, with the same rotation.
Add some math, and once I get to 61,418 damage in PvE gear, I do 43,230 damage in PvP gear.
Wow, look, a person in PvP gear should win, since I don't have 43,230 health with my PvE gear.

However, with PvE gear and spec, in the same time limit, I got 260K dmg average over 5 fights, with the 27sec time limit.
Add some math, and once I get to 61,418 damage in PvE gear, I do 33,071 damage in PvP gear.
Wait a sec, I have a total of 31,093 health, and with my mana shield it goes up to 34,905.
Keep in mind that my PvE gear is ilvl 264 not 270, and I am not quite optimally specced for burst damage.

Like I said, go test this out yourself.
At best, from my own tests, you could make an argument that PvP gear is equivalent to PvE gear.
However, that shouldn't be the case.
Edited by Fir on 11/17/2010 1:31 PM PST
I think the issue, if you'll forgive the pun...is resillience. Not the stat. But the players. As in he does not take as much damage when being hit. Those dummy targets dont reduce damage taken. They just show you how much potential damage you can do.

What I hear you saying is if we had the same mage, and you were wearing PVE gear and I was wearing PVP gear, of the same iLvl, I would be doing less damage to you because I have fewer stats, and you would be doing more damage to me because you have more stats, regardless of my resillience, netting a difference of very little, or none.

I've never done the math, but it certainly does not feel that way when you pvp. It's not all that often you are in the situation you describe or setup in your experiment, which is what everyone else is saying. It's just not practical. Resillience allows more breathing room to run, or LoS, or get a heal or use a cooldown. If we square off, and we both have all CD's, but I have resillience and you don't? The likelihood of you getting out of that alive are very slim unless you get some help. Because I can burst the same as you can burst, but you can't mitigate all that I can mitigate. The difference being Resillience.
90 Dwarf Paladin
15470
I think the issue, if you'll forgive the pun...is resillience. Not the stat. But the players. As in he does not take as much damage when being hit. Those dummy targets dont reduce damage taken. They just show you how much potential damage you can do.

What I hear you saying is if we had the same mage, and you were wearing PVE gear and I was wearing PVP gear, of the same iLvl, I would be doing less damage to you because I have fewer stats, and you would be doing more damage to me because you have more stats, regardless of my resillience, netting a difference of very little, or none.

I've never done the math, but it certainly does not feel that way when you pvp. It's not all that often you are in the situation you describe or setup in your experiment, which is what everyone else is saying. It's just not practical. Resillience allows more breathing room to run, or LoS, or get a heal or use a cooldown. If we square off, and we both have all CD's, but I have resillience and you don't? The likelihood of you getting out of that alive are very slim unless you get some help. Because I can burst the same as you can burst, but you can't mitigate all that I can mitigate. The difference being Resillience.


Not quite.

My calculations take resilience into account.
That is why I said that my mage when PvP geared has 61,418 health points.
That takes into account base, resilience, Ice Barrier, and Mana Shield.
When PvE geared, my mage has 34,905 health - base and Mana Shield.
When PvE specced and geared I can do 61,418 damage in the time it would take me to do 33,071 damage in PvP spec and gear.
In other words, when you take all other variables away - ground, ambush, CC, other players, etc - a PvP geared and specced player will kill a PvP specced and geared player.

Again, please, for the sake of all that is rational, stop saying this is unrealistic.
In the heat of the moment, anything can happen.
There are too many variables to dictate one way or another what is the deciding factor in winning a fight.
I am trying to isolate for a very specific problem that I see occurring.
Remember that both players have their usual class CC abilities, and that terrain can benefit either one, and that other players can benefit either one.
The only difference that I am trying to look at is PvP vs PvE geared toons.
As in, a raider geared to the teeth versus a PvPer geared to the teeth.
All else being equal, the numbers don't look good for the PvP player.
90 Tauren Druid
12495
I think the point everyone is trying to communicate is that you are trying to measure PVP capability by a very PVE-ish standard: unadulterated dps. However your original complaint and point you're trying to make with this evidence is that PVE gear is more effective in PVP than PVP gear.

However PVP effectiveness involves far too many factors to calculate using math alone. That's like trying to invent the best possible dance to go with a pop song by using its beats per minute to determine how many funky fresh steps you can pull in that time.

Here's a perfect example that even speaks on your terms of dps and sets aside CC and various utility spells/talents:

Moonkin, a spec I've long-loved, has rarely had any place in PVP throughout WoW's history. But since the spec was added in 2.0 it was capable of putting out capable dps in PVE before too many patches had passed. Frost mages on the other hand have been, until recently, a completely laughable PVE dps spec while remaining a classic and very deadly spec for PVP.

This is because of how bursty and reliable each of these specs' dps is (among other things.) Throughout pretty much the entire period of 2.0-4.0 if you stood a moonkin and frost mage across from each other and just had them nuke without using any ability that would interrupt or hinder each other's casting the frost mage would win.

Why? Because the frost mage can control when he nukes and put out a huge amount of damage in a very short amount of time with minimal ramp up. The moonkin on the other hand has high sustained dps with moderately high ramp up time despite easily beating the frost mage in a long single-target fight.

Once again there are also countless other factors you can't begin to calculate when you introduce each spec's utility. The moonkin has longer casts that are both more easily locked out and risk locking out important fallback spells like heals. Meanwhile the mage has almost no risk of interruption, and can easily absorb most damage the moonkin puts out between being locked down.

Again this example is regarding frost and moonkin performance between 2.0-4.0 not after 4.0 where a lot has changed.

We are not necessarily disagreeing that PVE gearing is more effective at doing damage, but we keep jumping past your argument because the point you are trying to demonstrate with it is based on a false premise.
90 Dwarf Paladin
15470
Now it's my turn to go off-topic for a bit.
What has happened to critical reading and thinking skills?
Has science completely left the schooling system?
I am looking at a raider vs a PvPer, in regards to their gear, with all else being equal.
The key phrase here being, "with all else being equal".

Thesis:
A raider with equal item level gear can kill a PvPer with equal level gear.

Testing:
Been killed in BGs many times extremely quickly by pure raiders.
Been killed in Arena by pure raiders.
Have done a controlled DPS test on a raiding mage vs a PvP mage.

Results:
While isolating for the benefits of PvP gear versus PvE gear, and keeping all other variable equal, the PvE geared mage does more damage in the same amount of time.
Base health, absorption abilities, and effective benefits of resilience were taken into account.
Resilience is ineffective in providing enough protection to a PvPer, since pure PvE gear does more damage than resilience reduces.

Conclusion:
While keeping all other factors of combat equal, a raider will kill a PvPer in comparable gear while surviving the encounter.

Now we are onto the Peer Review part.
However, it seems that "peer" is an overstatement.
I am not sure how else to simplify what I am trying to say here.
Read the following phrase, and think about what it means in the context of my writings here:
"All other factors being equal."
Then move on to:
"A raider will kill a PvPer because the raider can overcome the damage reduction benefits of resilience."
90 Tauren Druid
12495
I'm all for logic and the scientific method but you haven't proven or even tested anything in as controlled an environment as you suggest.

As was stated before the main difference between PVP gear and PVE gear is resilience vs a secondary stat. I'll even go to a ridiculous extreme and be generous and say if the PVE gear had all haste instead of resilience you'd get 20% out of it.

So how does 20% faster attack speed overcome a 45% reduction on all damage received?

And in this scenario 20% is probably way too much to credit PVE gear with yet I have just over 45% from resilience on my character right now in all the gear that can currently be bought for honor.
90 Dwarf Paladin
15470
Refer to post #21.
I don't have another DPS toon that is as PvP geared, so it's hard to do more tests.

I must admit, and you will understand when you actually read post #21, that I have been making an assumption this whole time.
Only in recent posts did I add the thing about spec.
If you spec for PvP, as in survivability, then yes, switching from PvE gear to PvP gear is better.
However, if you spec for PvE with PvE gear, then you beat someone who specs for PvP and has PvP gear.
My assumption was that the PvE geared person would also be specced as such - since that was the case every single time I looked up someone from BGs.

So, maybe I should change the name of the post.
Still, my experience and my testing bring the only concrete numbers that I have seen so far.
Anyone care to actually conduct a similar test?
This is what I have been asking for.
Edited by Fir on 11/17/2010 7:22 PM PST
90 Human Mage
14295
Just my 2 cents. If you have a druid with that much resilience and health... how are you dying? Secondly, if you have the mage you say you have... how are you losing to any class but Spriest 1v1?
90 Dwarf Paladin
15470
Just my 2 cents. If you have a druid with that much resilience and health... how are you dying? Secondly, if you have the mage you say you have... how are you losing to any class but Spriest 1v1?


The specifics vary from fight to fight, and there are too many to list here.
But, I have made it very simple to understand the underlying cause:

1) By taking more damage than I can heal though; and
2) By taking more damage than I can deal out.
90 Worgen Rogue
4650
you are giving examples of things that happened to you. youll always remeber when you are bursted down and tend to forget when you have 2+ dps on you and do just fine.

it really is a matter of gearing thou. i had two PvE geared mages attack the flag room in wsg tonight. i was the only one defending. i killed them both. i have full pvp gear. they most likely had bad pve gear and where not working well togther.

but as of right now this doesn't matter, in a few weeks Cata comes out and they have already done a patch that changes the way your abilities scale with level to curb the burst of lower level pvp.

Also as long as 100 points of resil mitigates more then 100 of a dps stat increase your damge then the pvp peice is better. you would need to get a spread sheet out to do the math thou.
85 Undead Warlock
0

Yes, druids are next to impossible to kill, but the two hunters most definitely did kill me within 2-3 seconds of starting to attack.


Hunters...? What is this... I don't even... hunters... kill... same sentence... head hurts... must... lie down.

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