thanks for fixing our heals..but what about.

90 Human Priest
16170

Let me try and clarify what I said. Back in end-game BC Holy Priests had 3-4 ranks of Gheal 2-3 ranks of Fheal 2 ranks of CoH, plus all the other healing spells we had. Not to mention the priest racials Desperate Prayer, Consume Magic etc.. All in all our Keybinds/action bars had A LOT more spells and most of them had the same graphic. This generation of priests are CELEBRATING that we got Heal back. We took months to get use to spamming Fheal and longed for the days of using Gheal (which back then cost more than the shaman/Paladin equivalents but due to the regen model was actually more efficient)


Speak for yourself, don't claim to speak for everyone. I've played a holy priest since lv 60 (and part of original Naxx), killed Kil'jaeden pre 3.0, and I *HATE* the addition of the Heal spell. I'd much rather use Flash Heal, Renew, Circle of Healing, etc. Also by the end of BC I only used Gheal to tank heal and was much happier for it, I don't care for slow single target spells for raid healing.

Heal should have stayed where it was, dead and gone, in my opinion. They should have nerfed regen (and ensured itemization made sure it stayed down) and made spells cost more but I feel they went far overboard in making every single aspect of healing extremely weak on top of that. In BC, mana was scarcer, but when I used that mana, I got some pretty powerful heals, and the expensive Cata heals just seem extremely weak in comparison to that healing model. Which is why I don't think it will feel very similar to BC healing.
Edited by Elliora on 11/17/2010 11:56 PM PST
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85 Draenei Priest
11670
I never had problems with mana in BC thanks to things like blue dragon proccing +using the lurker trinket, or chaining holy concentration procs with inner focus usage to get major outside the 5 second rule regen during combat, with mana pot chugging if i thought the fight was going to be intense. These things were practically an innervate, I could gain 30% mana back during a chain of procs like that.

In cata, they removed the 5 second rule as well as clearcasting (unless you count the not-even-worth-speccing version of Surge of Light that exists now), so basically the only similarity to BC healing over wotlk healing at all is you can pretend that heal is like rank 1 gheal. Sort of. Instead of stopping healing allowing you to regen a hefty amount of mana if you play right, stopping healing just halts the running out process while you don't cast. Not fun at all imo. WOTLK took regen out of the hands of the player, and just rewarded you for grouping with someone that gave replenishment. Cata takes that a step further and just punishes you for being a healer.

I never had more mana issues in BC than I did in WOTLK. I did play this char after the advent of ZA and op badge gear, and I only did 5/5 4/4 8/9 before the 3.0 nerfs, but I still feel at least somewhat qualified to speak on the regen differences.
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85 Human Priest
7795
They didn't need to add heal and equivalents to make mana an issue - they're not particularly fun spells as it's just greater heal with more suck and add to keybind clutter. Mana can be made limiting without heal pretty easily, and spell choice can still be important.

It's also worth understanding why priest single target heals are getting buffed - it's because they simply weren't being cast in raids as they're basically never worthwhile. It takes far too long/too much mana to heal anyone with single target heals so the whole triage vision goes out the window in favor of ae healing, again. I really don't see this changing unless they rip out a ton of the ae healing or nerf it into oblivion.. both seem unlikely.

I also don't remember mana being a huge deal in BC (you had to care about it but unless you were way undergeared, it wasn't by any means crippling) other than you might actually use mana pots on some fights and care about wasting mana. The really, really, really big difference with bc and cata healing is that greater heal wasn't under 20% of a tank's health.
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85 Troll Priest
5880
They didn't need to add heal and equivalents to make mana an issue - they're not particularly fun spells as it's just greater heal with more suck and add to keybind clutter. Mana can be made limiting without heal pretty easily, and spell choice can still be important.
.

What exactly is a Greater Heal if there is nothing to compare it to.

Personally I like the new (old) Heal spell. It makes a Greater Heal feel that much more potent by having it overshadow something smaller, and it's nice to have a heal for moments where you don't need such a huge health boost.

It also adds depth. If you can sustain normal damage with Heal for the most part, then you'll feel much more equipped to handle larger damage, or tank/dps mistakes due to access to two stronger heals. Gheal/Flash.
I especially like the idea that we can output a mountain of incredible healing at personal mana cost. I like to know that if I go oom, it was my own doing. Even though you cannot control the damage incoming, it's nice to at least have the option of healing through almost anything that isn't a one shot if you absolutely HAVE to. With only Gheal and Flash, this option is vastly diminished.

For pvp I agree it's a pain, and I wish there were talents to make it more usable due to its poor output. Perhaps talents to drop its cast time when taking damage, or to make it almost entirely uninterruptible.
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665


Again, I ask the question(s), as a Shaman and assuming you have a Holy Priest alt, you don't see problems with the priest model?


i see no problem with the model of having the largest toolkit by far, the ability to perform well in any raid role, but being forced to choose which raid role you're choosing and being locked out of the others.

i see no problem with the utility the priest brings, and i'm jealous of a handful of priest spells.

What is the difference between perceived problems and actual ones? Who makes that call? You?


maybe the people who, you know, design the game? and have actual long-term balance in mind?

the perceived problem, according to priest players, is that they aren't head and shoulders above the other healers in terms of output, longevity, everything.

Priest players complain about EVERYTHING... and they are always doing their QQing in a vaccuum. Priests are so guilty of refusing to look at the context of the class, or putting blinders on to a few spells that might refute their points.

The developers have said, multiple times, that priest/shaman mana regen is THE CORRECT ONE. That druids and pallies HAD TOO MUCH REGEN. And then priests complain that druids and pallies regen so much more mana then they do, it's not fair. Do you see the problem here?

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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3913987439473738371#

^ probably my favorite time as a healer in WoW. Yes, that's Heal, but you'll notice it actually makes the health bar go up.

Heal would have a place if it didn't heal for such a pathetically low amount at level 85. I don't think I've ever seen it hit for more than ~8k, which is about 7% of a DPS' raid buffed HP, or 4% of a tank's HP. The oomph of a renew tick with a 2.5s cast time tacked on, amazing! /sarc

Like others have said, it has NOTHING in common with the BC model (which I loved), or the extreme downranking from vanilla (which I loved even more). Bad healers went OOM in BC and vanilla because they couldn't figure out how to play the 5sr to their advantage, or used the Earring randomly instead of waiting for Blue Dragon procs/Clearcast>Inner Fire chains, or spammed max rank Greater Heal, etc. The difference between the good and the bad healers wasn't only throughput, it was their longevity. In Cata, you can't control your mana usage, you're on the same footing as the healer who went OOM in both of those models: spam max rank spells to keep up with the damage until you go OOM.

On that note, another problem is encounter design; we might start casting single target heals more often if every boss didn't have massive raid-wide AoE spells. Almost every fight on beta has one, if not more, and you can't really heal through those with slow single target heals. So is it any wonder that we're spamming AoE heals again, or that Disc is bubble-botting, when it's all they can come up with to challenge healers? The only difference now is that the rest of the raid feels the pressure of the healer's somewhat limited mana.
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665
I like how its implied that all the priest complaining must just be because priests are whiners. I guess people that play other healing classes just dont have a whiny personality and its exclusuve to the players that have chosen to have priest mains. It must just be perceived problems not actual ones.



context and history want a word with you.

only priests (and to some extent, druids) have the audacity to get a buff and complain about it. See: tree of life.
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665


I'm sure the game designers would be very flattered at your claims of infallibility. We've seen more than enough admissions over the course of WoW history admitting that mistakes were made or that things could have been done better.


i encourage you to show me where i indicated this so-called infallibility. Perhaps you're referring to the fact that I said that the only ones who know the long-term plans and encounter design are the developers?

I was asked who decides what the actual problems are. There's not really an argument as to the answer to that question. But you managed to try anyway.

You are putting words in the mouths of a lot of people. That simply doesn't fly as a logical argument. Quite subjective and not worth arguing.


if i'm putting words in peoples mouths, perhaps you need to re-read the 2 or 3 threads on the front page full of priest tears.


I might suggest that perhaps there is a disconnect between your perception of complaints and actual complaints.


again, front page, tears. Both forums.


No. If you read through the thread or threads reflecting issues at the forefront, mana is but one of the issues and concerns being discussed. I have no doubt that eventually this will work itself out, but I don't think it would nearly as fast and efficiently if there wasn't a large amount of feedback concerning the issue.


no?

read the blue posts on holy. Every single one says "we think holy is in a good place right now regarding mana regen."

Priests just got an across-the-board throughput buff.

So.. let's see here... mana regen for priests is where the devs want it to be. Throughput just got a total buff.

What else is there? Utility? Are priests really gonna complain about utility now? Or, maybe, they're gonna be uninformed, take the numbers they see in front of them with no context, and then complain that other classes are regenning more mana or healing more than they are?

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90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
that's what happens when there are a lot of things still wrong and only 1 problem out many are getting fixed.
i think there's a major disconnect between perceived problems and actual ones.
Seriously, as a Shaman and assuming you have a Holy Priest alt, you don't see problems with the priest model? BTW, what is the difference between perceived problems and actual ones? Who makes that call? You? Historically, have you ever seen this much discussion from the generally and relatively docile priest class across releases in general?
You weren't here for the collective tantrum thrown by the priest forums back when they added a cooldown to PoM, were you?

Plenty of bads cried about the CoH cooldown as well, to my recollection.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
i think there's a major disconnect between perceived problems and actual ones.
Players: priest have major mana issues.
Devs: here is a 20% increase to single target heals
Players: but priest have major mana issues.
Devs: you got your fix, now stop crying

Do you see the major disconnect between what players want and what devs are giving them ?
It was more like:

Players: Priests have major mana issues
Devs: Priest regen is fine, everyone else's regen is too powerful
Players: But I waaaaaaaaaant buuuuuffffs!!!!!!!!!11
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23 Draenei Shaman
160
You weren't here for the collective tantrum thrown by the priest forums back when they added a cooldown to PoM, were you?

Plenty of bads cried about the CoH cooldown as well, to my recollection.


And shamans who pitched a fit during the ulduar "Chain heal is underpowered, nerf PoH" days. Now that thread was a sight to behold.

Not to mention the 8 page thread of paladins/shamans crying about their mastery.

Everyone cries, we're all whiners in the end.
Edited by Sepku on 11/18/2010 1:54 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7640
i think there's a major disconnect between perceived problems and actual ones.
Players: priest have major mana issues.
Devs: here is a 20% increase to single target heals
Players: but priest have major mana issues.
Devs: you got your fix, now stop crying

Do you see the major disconnect between what players want and what devs are giving them ?
It was more like:

Players: Priests have major mana issues
Devs: Priest regen is fine, everyone else's regen is too powerful
Players: But I waaaaaaaaaant buuuuuffffs!!!!!!!!!11


Seeing as those other classes still have far better longevity even after being nerf'd, I think that's a sign that Holy regen is too low.
Edited by Jrgrim on 11/18/2010 1:54 PM PST
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665
i think there's a major disconnect between perceived problems and actual ones.
Players: priest have major mana issues.
Devs: here is a 20% increase to single target heals
Players: but priest have major mana issues.
Devs: you got your fix, now stop crying

Do you see the major disconnect between what players want and what devs are giving them ?
It was more like:

Players: Priests have major mana issues
Devs: Priest regen is fine, everyone else's regen is too powerful
Players: But I waaaaaaaaaant buuuuuffffs!!!!!!!!!11





Seeing as those other classes still have far better longevity even after being nerf'd, I think that's a sign that Holy regen is too low.


lol if this quote doesn't EXACTLY sum up how i see the priest class, then i have 3 left feet.
Edited by Hebrewshockz on 11/18/2010 1:59 PM PST
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665

Point taken. Argument made. Your perception of the priest class is that it complains too much, irregardless of thread topic. I don't necessarily agree but can live with you having that perception.


it took you this long to figure that out?

you didn't read the OP of this thread then, i guess?

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85 Human Priest
7795
They didn't need to add heal and equivalents to make mana an issue - they're not particularly fun spells as it's just greater heal with more suck and add to keybind clutter. Mana can be made limiting without heal pretty easily, and spell choice can still be important.
.

What exactly is a Greater Heal if there is nothing to compare it to.

Personally I like the new (old) Heal spell. It makes a Greater Heal feel that much more potent by having it overshadow something smaller, and it's nice to have a heal for moments where you don't need such a huge health boost.

It also adds depth. If you can sustain normal damage with Heal for the most part, then you'll feel much more equipped to handle larger damage, or tank/dps mistakes due to access to two stronger heals. Gheal/Flash.
I especially like the idea that we can output a mountain of incredible healing at personal mana cost. I like to know that if I go oom, it was my own doing. Even though you cannot control the damage incoming, it's nice to at least have the option of healing through almost anything that isn't a one shot if you absolutely HAVE to. With only Gheal and Flash, this option is vastly diminished.

For pvp I agree it's a pain, and I wish there were talents to make it more usable due to its poor output. Perhaps talents to drop its cast time when taking damage, or to make it almost entirely uninterruptible.


This reads like you're talking about 80, in which case yeah it's true. At 85 however, you're healing for practically the same amount vs _much_ higher health pools, and unless you have 30s to chaincast heal (you might think I'm exaggerating here, but...), you're not going to do anything significant with it.
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