Gift of the Serpent Incidental nerfs

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90 Pandaren Monk
8040
This is a report from EU monk forums.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8426793019?page=1#1

Precursor: This isn't a whine thread (maybe a little), just a little post documenting some of the effects past changes have had on MW mastery with little to no changes being done to rectify the offset balance. So pls don't spam the thread with new mastery ideas/changes, make a new topic or something.

Oh and if you find something that needs corrected go for it.


Teh problem
Mistweaver mastery is unique in how it functions, where other healer masteries function as flat % bonuses to the already existing heal - Gift of the Serpent is a spell of it's own that scales from both quantity of heals and mastery rating, with it's own healing formula that isn't based on the spell which spawned it. This has made a situation where with changes over the expansion, due to neglect, mastery has become progressively worse - despite it already being an exceedingly weak stat.

It's worth saying from the get-go that this actually has worked both ways. There are numerous times when a spell or spell(s) have been nerfed and mastery is propped up. I'll go into more detail with this later when explaining the broken dynamic between single target and AoE healing relating to mastery.

We also don't know for definite what the current scalars are, so I'll be working off the idea that the developers would relay such important change information to players. Considering the nature of the mastery and how difficult it is to analyze, (no combat log event when an orb spawns, but one when they're picked up) we can only work off estimate spawn counts.



List of Relevant Changes

Going from the date of GotS scalar announcement (~30th october, 2012, so in late development) and assuming they haven't changed:

• Renewing Mist: 0.15
• Chi Wave: 0.25
• Zen Sphere (Periodic): 0.25
• Zen Sphere (Detonate): 0.15
• Chi Burst: 0.15
• Soothing Mist: 0.3
• Soothing Mist (Statue): 0.15
• Enveloping Mist: 0.2
• Uplift: 0.25
• Revival: 0.15
• Eminence (Self and Xuen): 0.2
• Eminence (Statue): 0.1
• Chi Torpedo: 0.15
• Spinning Crane Kick: 0.1



5.1
Renewing Mists now travels to 2 additional targets (was 3 targets).

So now instead of each Renewing Mist cast causing 36 heals, it was doing 27. So a 25% reduction in orb spawns from Renewing Mist alone. This would be inline with any other healing mastery, however since as previously mentioned Gift of the Serpent has it's own healing formula.



5.2
Chi Burst now does 380% more damage, 69% more healing, no longer costs Chi, and has a 30-second cooldown.

Chi Burst was previously spammable before 5.2, it also had a 0.15 modifier to it's mastery proc rate. However with the bump to 30 seconds, it still has the same mastery scalar. So a spell which now does in the region of 1 million healing per cast only spawns about one orb. So at 24% mastery, I'm getting roughly 100,000 healing on top of this, a 10% increase... If I added 10,000 raw mastery rating on top of what I already have - that only increases to two orbs - or a 20% increase for 10,000 rating.

Healing Spheres generated by Mastery: Gift of the Serpent have a duration of 30 seconds.

Essentially meaning that orbs have to be consumed within 30 seconds to be of use. Many Mistweavers glyph out of this because this change was detrimental to how GotS is supposed to work. This was probably meant to work in combination with the very iffy 6 yards and 50% explosion change, it didn't.

<<general gutting of fistweaving>>
One benefit to fistweaving was the fact it made you a tiny smart heal turret due to Serpent's Zeal passively healing the raid for small amounts. This accounted for a lot of mastery procs due to the fact the healing was likely to be effective. Mastery still does not proc from healing full targets, probably to avoid spawning fields of orbs before a fight - which doesn't work because hello life tap
Edited by Shennong on 10/17/2013 12:01 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
8040
5.4
Spinning Crane Kick now functions like a smart heal, healing the 6 most injured friendly targets within range, and minor guardians are no longer targeted (Wild Imps, Bloodworms, Snakes from Snake Traps, etc.). There has been no change to the total amount of healing granted by the ability.

Oh dear... where do I start. As we know since Gift of the Serpent does not scale with the heal it procced from but the quantity of healing events done mastery took another significant hit. Let's take a look at SCK in 5.3:

0.1*25*0.1625*4 = 1.625 orbs per channel, to take some figures from my spreadsheet with my current character, that's:

323,278 healing from Spinning Crane Kick.
130,593 healing from Gift of the Serpent


In 5.4?

0.1*6*0.1625*4 = 0.39 orbs per channel, to take some figures from my spreadsheet with my current character, that's:

323,278 healing from Spinning Crane Kick.
31,324 healing from Gift of the Serpent



Examples of How This Hurts

Forgive me for linking raidbots, but it is a good indication of how well a healer performs meter-wise on a fight. Since Mistweaver is a pure output bot and literally every contribution we give to the raid is made on a meter be it damage or healing, it's depressing looking at these.

Example 1 - Thok the Bloodthirsty
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Thok_the_Bloodthirsty/25H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

A fight where mistweavers should unarguably be among the best just because of the fact we cannot be interrupted while carrying out our AoE healing rotation and the fight demands pure raw output. If there was ever a fight that screamed Mistweaver this would be it. Despite that, other healers are generally performing far and above our capabilities.

Example 2 - Norushen
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Norushen/25H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

A fight with pretty much constant AoE damage á la garalon. Another fight where spawns from SCK would have made a significant contribution. Another fight where we lose to priests and shamans.

Example 3 - Galakras
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Galakras/25H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

A fight where players have to run over orbs to execute tactics, again a heavy AoE healing check at the end. Monks still under performing significantly. So pretty much every fight we would have excelled in past tiers we're bad on, it's not acceptable to have the only decent fight for a healer to be the trivial first boss of the tier.


Revival
I'm sure the developers are sick of hearing about Revival, but this isn't a healing buff plead. A proper mastery scalar on Revival would be a very beneficial option. It gives the monk the ability to invest stats into creating orbs which can be used by the raid 2-3 seconds later. So say at 0 mastery you'd spawn 2 orbs (roughly 10% of Revival's healing done), a full mastery built monk would spawn around 25 orbs - meaning that despite the initial revival hit being weak they could bank the healing into orbs for later use.


Further Stuff
http://bestmonk.eu/?p=251

I've made a bunch of stuff here, the writing isn't exactly content suitable for this forum post because my blog is personalized to how I prefer to write when I'm relaxing. It does however contain further numbers and observations.


Conclusion

The developers made an oopsie, Gift of the Serpent in it's current function is a non stat. With it being so bad and how itemization works, I'm picking up more and more of it without seeing any benefit while my peers are benefiting immensely from their upgrades. Pretty much every issue with monks right now could be fixed by making mastery scaling work properly.

A monk gearing for mastery wouldn't benefit from mana tea, they would be able to opt into a stat to invest raid cooldown healing in to store it for later, and they would be able to have a stat that works for ~different~ spot healing. In other words, at the cost of infinite mana and the ability to deal damage we could combat our weaknesses.

Really at the end of the day, it's up to developers to step up and take a look at healing right now. There are classes running around with 2 raid cooldowns, unique utility such as mana tide, ancestral vigor, and a plethora of smart heals.

Others have talents which outshine a monk's raid cooldown with pure absorbs. This class also happened to get buffed for a pseudo nerf to their mastery, made in the same vein as the change to SCK and sparked this post.

Then there are monks who have to endure not even having a working set of secondary stats. So blizzard, fix pls
Edited by Shennong on 10/17/2013 12:05 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
15245
Reglitch is one of the few that actually do theorycrafting for mistweavers, if you want to debate this with him since we're not allowed to post on european servers, feel free to join us in the mmo-champion thread as well.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1251599-The-Serpent%E2%80%99s-Accord-A-Mistweaver-PvE-Guide-5-4
90 Troll Shaman
18930
Almost every competent MW that I have talked to thinks that Reglitch is, and has always been a joke, and should generally best be ignored.

The counter to the argument that Monk Mastery is weak/wasted stats is the fact that Monk regen mechanics allow them to run with 1/2 to 1/3 of the Spirit levels of every other healer. That means that they inherently have far more secondary throughput stats than every other healer. Sure, mastery may be largely a wasted stat, but it can be avoided/reforged out of, and they are compensated by having more secondary stats to begin with. Any change to make Monk Mastery as good as Masteries of other healers would have to come with a gutting of their regen so they require Spirit as much as everyone else does.

Besides, the idea of one stat being significantly worse than other stats is hardly unique to Monk mastery. Shaman mastery is almost as big of a problem, and generally rates in at 1/3 to 1/10 of the value per itemization point that every other secondary stat has. Crit and Haste are almost as bad for some other healers.
90 Worgen Druid
10115
The counter to the argument that Monk Mastery is weak/wasted stats is the fact that Monk regen mechanics allow them to run with 1/2 to 1/3 of the Spirit levels of every other healer. That means that they inherently have far more secondary throughput stats than every other healer. Sure, mastery may be largely a wasted stat, but it can be avoided/reforged out of, and they are compensated by having more secondary stats to begin with. Any change to make Monk Mastery as good as Masteries of other healers would have to come with a gutting of their regen so they require Spirit as much as everyone else does.


Oh hey look, Monks have several thousand extra throughput stats because we can lolmanatea everything. Guess what, were still not flying ahead of the meters with all those extra stats. We're keeping up, that's it. That alone should say something about our stat scaling. It's complete crap.
90 Gnome Monk
7430
The counter to the argument that Monk Mastery is weak/wasted stats is the fact that Monk regen mechanics allow them to run with 1/2 to 1/3 of the Spirit levels of every other healer. That means that they inherently have far more secondary throughput stats than every other healer. Sure, mastery may be largely a wasted stat, but it can be avoided/reforged out of, and they are compensated by having more secondary stats to begin with. Any change to make Monk Mastery as good as Masteries of other healers would have to come with a gutting of their regen so they require Spirit as much as everyone else does.


And yet, even with the 50-66% extra throughput stats you mention and the fact that, unlike other healing specs, *every single bit of healing contribution mistweavers do is tracked* mistweavers are far from excelling on the lolmeters. Those extra throuput stats are barely keeping monks competitive against the healing output of other specs, completely ignoring the damage reductions the other specs can also contribute.
90 Undead Monk
13535
The counter to the argument that Monk Mastery is weak/wasted stats is the fact that Monk regen mechanics allow them to run with 1/2 to 1/3 of the Spirit levels of every other healer. That means that they inherently have far more secondary throughput stats than every other healer


We're still keeping up with others and not destroying them. Wonder what would happen if we had to use spirit, and then lose a bunch of our crit/haste.....

As for the OP, our mastery rating has always been crap. This really isn't news. (I do like our mastery though, I'll take 15% of my healing from a stat that I don't like to use).
Edited by Dijital on 10/17/2013 1:48 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
14455
10/17/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Tiberria
Almost every competent MW that I have talked to thinks that Reglitch is, and has always been a joke, and should generally best be ignored.

That's interesting . . . but alrighty then! I'm happy to have someone that's actually doing something for us cause I wouldn't even know where to begin.

And for the go to scapegoat of us not needing spirit/more throughput stats? All we can really put all these extra stats into is crit. WHOOPEE! Mastery sucks, any haste beyond breakpoint is detrimental to our REM, and we obviously don't need spirit. All the other healers see actual gains from all of them and being at the end of the xpac you've got enough spirit to put it all into throughput yourselves, so don't go there with the spirit argument. We're still extremely capable of OOM'ing when going balls to the wall with how expensive everything is and we don't get lolsmart heals like you do unless fistweaving which doesn't exactly make the cut in progression.
Edited by Lumiair on 10/17/2013 1:56 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
we don't get lolsmart heals like you do unless fistweaving which doesn't exactly make the cut in progression


You have a ton of smart heals. Monks and Disc should be balanced with their damage output kept in mind. But that is just my opinion.
90 Pandaren Monk
8040
10/17/2013 02:03 PMPosted by Harpoa
we don't get lolsmart heals like you do unless fistweaving which doesn't exactly make the cut in progression


You have a ton of smart heals. Monks and Disc should be balanced with their damage output kept in mind. But that is just my opinion.


Tons of smart heals? Do tell!
Edited by Shennong on 10/17/2013 2:11 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
13165
Without going too much into a debate on where Monks do or do not stand on the meters and whatever utility they do or do not bring, the mastery stat doing literally nothing for MWs is an objectively terrible design and should have just as much priority toward being "fixed' as the Spirit situation. At least Spirit is technically useful at some point in our gearing process, no matter how slim the window is. This has NEVER been the case with mastery and it being so piss-poor is extremely stupid.

I'm not so sure that making the mastery stat viable for us will automatically fix as many issues as Reglitch says (really, I have no idea) but is absolutely cannot stay like it is. I cannot reiterate that Mastery as a stat is worse than Spirit in pretty much every conceivable way.
90 Pandaren Monk
14455
You have a ton of smart heals. Monks and Disc should be balanced with their damage output kept in mind. But that is just my opinion.

I would TRUELY love to hear what these tons of smart heals are. So do tell, I'm listening.
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
I have to largely disagree that Mastery is a wasted stat and better than spirit for a MW during progression, as far as I'm concerned if I don't run out of mana and mana tea during Heroic fights I want more Mastery over my spirit.

That being said Mastery is scaling poorly at this point in time, regardless of me having several thousand stat points more mastery already this tier I've seen no increase in its throughput outside of my set bonus.

Merging the scaling of a poor stat (however unintentional) is just incorrect and definitely needs a look and a fix, I don't want Mastery to be equal to or outweigh my other secondaries but a little bit of usefulness is definitely called for.
90 Pandaren Monk
8040
10/17/2013 01:46 PMPosted by Dijital
The counter to the argument that Monk Mastery is weak/wasted stats is the fact that Monk regen mechanics allow them to run with 1/2 to 1/3 of the Spirit levels of every other healer. That means that they inherently have far more secondary throughput stats than every other healer


We're still keeping up with others and not destroying them. Wonder what would happen if we had to use spirit, and then lose a bunch of our crit/haste.....

As for the OP, our mastery rating has always been crap. This really isn't news. (I do like our mastery though, I'll take 15% of my healing from a stat that I don't like to use).


I know it isn't something new. This is just a repost of Reglitch post on EU monks in hoping a Dev see's it & maybe get lucky in seeing a change.

I have to largely disagree that Mastery is a wasted stat and better than spirit for a MW during progression, as far as I'm concerned if I don't run out of mana and mana tea during Heroic fights I want more Mastery over my spirit.

That being said Mastery is scaling poorly at this point in time, regardless of me having several thousand stat points more mastery already this tier I've seen no increase in its throughput outside of my set bonus.

Merging the scaling of a poor stat (however unintentional) is just incorrect and definitely needs a look and a fix, I don't want Mastery to be equal to or outweigh my other secondaries but a little bit of usefulness is definitely called for.


That's what Reglitch is basically saying. During 5.4 PTR, he (Reglitch) geared towards Mastery (40%+) & it was still underperforming. He tweeted it to a Dev about it & their response was they will look into it. But, as we all know nothing ever came out of it.
Edited by Shennong on 10/17/2013 2:49 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
Also to say that Monks have half to one third the spirit of another comparable healer is to either lie or be ignorant. I currently have almost 9k spirit and have no way to get away from it, between the amp trinket and running without a regen trinket for this tier Monk's necessity for spirit has gone far up. Oh and not to mention SCK spam draining our mana pool forcing us to drink more mana tea.

What other healers seem to misunderstand is while you may have mana neutral spells that idea does not exist for monks, everything we do costs tons of mana or requires a secondary resource a secondary resource that we have to invest mana into.

Long story short we may have less of it but we aren't shaming the other healers anymore with how little we have
90 Night Elf Druid
12080
Tons of smart heals? Do tell!


I would TRUELY love to hear what these tons of smart heals are. So do tell, I'm listening.


Do y'all have to post with such a smartass attitude? "Do tell! I'm listening."

It sounds rather petulant and, frankly, childish, and I'd love to see a thoughtful and respectful discussion on this topic.
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
It's hard for people not to respond with smart !@# attitudes when people from other classes are spewing nonsense.

I have no problem with someone not knowing about my class, but to say certain things are deserved because X,Y, and Z are overpowered is nonsensical and adds to the frustration a idiocy.

I would also like to see thoughtful posts here as well, so let's all try to keep our egos in check
Edited by Zombiewu on 10/17/2013 3:17 PM PDT
90 Orc Shaman
HC
16450
Silly monks and your ability to use almost no spirit. opopop
90 Pandaren Monk
8040
10/17/2013 03:03 PMPosted by Cinnabuns
Tons of smart heals? Do tell!


I would TRUELY love to hear what these tons of smart heals are. So do tell, I'm listening.


Do y'all have to post with such a smartass attitude? "Do tell! I'm listening."

It sounds rather petulant and, frankly, childish, and I'd love to see a thoughtful and respectful discussion on this topic.


Ok, I'll bite, so let me rephrase.

What are these "Tons of smart heals" are you talking about that we monks have?
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
Silly monks and your ability to use almost no spirit. opopop


You have less spirit than I do. Lol terrible forum troll.
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