Gift of the Serpent Incidental nerfs

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90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
Silly monks and your ability to use almost no spirit. opopop


Nerf Sensations! :P
90 Pandaren Monk
15095
It's hard for people not to respond with smart !@# attitudes when people from other classes are spewing nonsense.

I have no problem with someone not knowing about my class, but to say certain things are deserved because X,Y, and Z are overpowered is nonsensical and adds to the frustration a idiocy.

I would also like to see thoughtful posts here as well, so let's all try to keep our egos in check

Sums it up exactly. Seeing a Shaman of all classes to mention balance around smart heals whether it's from damage or not just blew my mind. So in a kinder, less condescending female Pandaren voice -

Hi there! Let us sit down to some tea and discuss these smart heals us Monks possess. Or why it seems to be that everyone thinks we're op. I'd be interested to see what your side of the story is.
Edited by Lumiair on 10/17/2013 3:29 PM PDT
90 Troll Shaman
18930
10/17/2013 03:20 PMPosted by Shennong




Do y'all have to post with such a smartass attitude? "Do tell! I'm listening."

It sounds rather petulant and, frankly, childish, and I'd love to see a thoughtful and respectful discussion on this topic.


Ok, I'll bite, so let me rephrase.

What are these "Tons of smart heals" are you talking about that we monks have?


ReM has smart heal bounce selection, and Uplift is essentially an extension of ReM. I would consider all output from ReM/Uplift to be "smart healing" by any reasonable definition. Plus, you have SCK as a 6 target capped smart heal, and if I remember correctly (I may be wrong on this one), didn't they also give the L30 talents and Chi Torpedo the target capped smart heal treatment as well? Well over 60% of MW output is effectively smart heals.
90 Draenei Shaman
11540
I honestly don't blame Blizzard for mastery in general. You don't get many options.
1 Human Priest
0
Its so smart it prefers to heal my hunters pets to full. It also likes to land on someone who's 99% and skip the 20% person. Smart means no control. In a perfect environment you may be correct with all things considered.
Edited by Arodnom on 10/17/2013 4:01 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
Tiberria some of the things you have said are correct but to possibly think that Uplift is a smart heal whether it interacts with ReM or not is just wrong. You are discrediting yourself by adding nonsense to your argument.

I would love to see someone getting uplift all on their own without me prepping Chi and using the ability.

As for ReMs smart heal function, the only part that is "smart" is the spread of the HoT since it chooses its own targets beyond our initial application(which is still more control than HST drop and win) and even then it stays on those targets for 18 seconds it doesn't ever reevaluate its choices and move around quite frankly making it one of the least smart heals available

SCK I concede

And the only lvl30 talent with a smart function is Chi Wave in which case very little mileage is gotten out of in 25m although it sees much more usage in 10m
Edited by Zombiewu on 10/17/2013 4:06 PM PDT
90 Troll Shaman
18930


I would love to see someone getting uplift all on their own without me prepping Chi and using the ability


That isn't really how very many smart heals (except maybe Efflo) work anyway. Almost all of them require managing some combination of a cooldown, mana cost, cast time, target selection, ground effect placement, etc. No one really gets smart heals "all on their own". That isn't really any different than using an ability on cooldown every 8 seconds and then using a second ability when you have enough secondary resources. Your Uplift targets are selected by targets that have ReM on them, which is selected by smart healing target selection with no real user input. I stand by the fact that I consider Uplift effectively a smart heal.
90 Pandaren Monk
8040


Ok, I'll bite, so let me rephrase.

What are these "Tons of smart heals" are you talking about that we monks have?


ReM has smart heal bounce selection, and Uplift is essentially an extension of ReM. I would consider all output from ReM/Uplift to be "smart healing" by any reasonable definition. Plus, you have SCK as a 6 target capped smart heal, and if I remember correctly (I may be wrong on this one), didn't they also give the L30 talents and Chi Torpedo the target capped smart heal treatment as well? Well over 60% of MW output is effectively smart heals.


ReM smart heal isn't very smart. It bounces to whoever it wants to. CT is so smart it can or will heal the same person twice (even if they are at 100% HP) even though there are ppl that need its.
90 Pandaren Monk
16670
ReM isn't quite "smart" in the way that a lot of people think of smart heals (oh this person is damaged here's a heal). Its gotten better (remember ReM on pets! :D) but its still far from perfect. You can have it jump to the farthest damaged target (it starts at 40 yards and works inward but favors farther our players) or jump closer (starts at 0 and works out to 20 which potentially could cause it to hit a point where it won't spread).

That's not a terribly intelligent heal if you ask me, and while player skill can compensate for some of that (I mean our best single target heal requires us to know the position of who we want to heal anyway) its somewhat heartbreaking to watch ReM spread to close to full health people when someone who might be taking a decent amount of raid damage aside from your target doesn't get ReM which thus prevents you from hitting him with uplift.

The mastery scalar problem is what's kept mastery rating from being worth anything, and getting steadily worse though. If the scaling wasn't so botched it might actually be worth something. Best stat? Not really but much better than it is in its current iteration. Alone without any mastery Gift of the Serpent is half decent if people use the orbs, the fact that mastery does almost nothing to make your mastery stronger is somewhat distressing.
90 Pandaren Monk
15095
ReM smart heal isn't very smart. It bounces to whoever it wants to

Exactly. The fact that it doesn't jump to pets cause. . . Why not? almost surprises me. I'd agree if it were capable of predicting the future and be on the two people who just took damage and actually need the Uplift, but alas, that's not how it works. It's far from smart.
90 Night Elf Monk
15695

ReM has smart heal bounce selection, and Uplift is essentially an extension of ReM. I would consider all output from ReM/Uplift to be "smart healing" by any reasonable definition.


So much ignorance it hurts.

ReM jumps to the closest injured target within 20 yards or furthest injured target within 40 yards (if glyphed). That's it. It doesn't care if someone is at 10% health and another person is at 99% health, it only cares where they are and if health != 100%. Because of this, most ReMs end up on full health targets 2 seconds later. Uplift with TFT has half of its healing tied to whoever ReM decided to jump to ~25 seconds earlier based on position more than anything else, there's nothing smart about that. In fact, the main problem with MW right now is a lack of healing control due to the over reliance on comboing with a non-smart heal.

On topic though, the fact that healing distribution among MW spells has changed drastically over the expansion without a single change to individual GotS scaling ever is just gross negligence on Blizzard's part. It should never have been such a convoluted mastery in the first place.
90 Blood Elf Priest
15210


I would love to see someone getting uplift all on their own without me prepping Chi and using the ability


That isn't really how very many smart heals (except maybe Efflo) work anyway. Almost all of them require managing some combination of a cooldown, mana cost, cast time, target selection, ground effect placement, etc. No one really gets smart heals "all on their own". That isn't really any different than using an ability on cooldown every 8 seconds and then using a second ability when you have enough secondary resources. Your Uplift targets are selected by targets that have ReM on them, which is selected by smart healing target selection with no real user input. I stand by the fact that I consider Uplift effectively a smart heal.


trolololol? And off-topic, but I'll indulge:
I will try to illustrate the problem with a comparison.
There is a huge difference between
Wild Growth
8 second cooldown
lasts 7 seconds (before Haste)
Heals 5 targets
"The amount healed is applied quickly at first, and slows down as the Wild Growth reaches its full duration."
Relatively small portion of Druid AOE HPS

and
Renewing Mist
8 second cooldown
lasts 18 seconds (before Haste)
Spreads 2 times for a total of 3 targets
Completely huge portion of total HPS (60-65% ReM+Uplift)
Completely huge portion of Monk AOE HPS
100% of Monk 10m spread AOE HPS

So, seriously, have you even played a Monk? I heal 10-man, and it happens extremely frequently, especially on fights like Nazgrim where people at full health are suddenly NOT at full health, that I can have ReM on 6/10 people, those people are all full HP, and the other 4/10 are all seriously injured. I literally cannot AoE in that situation at all (where the Druid in the above situation can throw out Rejuvs until WG is off-cd). Light of Dawn, Wild Growth, Eternal Flame, even Chain Heal, and obviously the Greater-Heal-equivalents (which Monk does not even have) all do not have this problem. Only Prayer of Healing can have a similar problem, and having mained a Disc Priest in 10m all through Cataclysm, I can tell you it happens with much less frequency that those 4 players would be split 2 & 2 between the groups. Even if they were, Disc's single-target target-swapping healing is way better than Monk's, so it never felt like a problem as Disc. If I need to heal those four people as Monk, I use single-target, which means: 1. Enveloping Mist heals for a ton over 6 sec for 3 chi, so basically I can top one person off and leave the rest to die trying to generate 3 more chi, also gimps AoE in short term if you don't regenerate it back 2. Healing Sphere, I have to somehow know where all four of those people are and then successfully click under their tiny model, effective when it works but extremely clunky and may do 0 healing 3. Surging Mist, equivalent to just nuking them with Flash Heals, which is one of the only things that can OOM a MWer 4. Fistweave! Nope, the range is 20yd from me and from statue and that's not guaranteed to heal anyone, and half the healing will probably just go to a 95% HP tank who already has Lifebloom and Beacon on them so essentially overhealing, making it like low-HPS if it does any at all.

Chi Burst and Chi Torpedo are currently broken, DR isn't working properly (and our meters are still bad lol), but I wouldn't call having to hit raid targets in a line a "smart heal." Doesn't help with the 4-person-spread situation I described above. 4 targets is decent enough for SCK anyway. By no means am I complaining about uneven raid damage while the raid is stacked. The problem is when ReM and Uplift are the only ways you can AoE heal, and you're in a situation where they're not effective, and then because our spot healing is even worse than our tank healing, you're stuck with low HPS during that common situation.

Also, saying "Reglitch is a joke so his point is invalid" is rude, not to mention an ad-hominem logical fallacy. If you really want to try to contribute to the conversation, don't be a #@!!!%@!, and know what you're talking about. :-/
Edited by Geodew on 10/17/2013 4:48 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
Stand by it if you must you are still incorrect. By choosing an initial target 1/3 of ReMs "smart" healing potential is removed and by using TFT at the proper times which is most of what defines proper Monk healing the RNG of ReM bounces is mostly removed.

Now a smart heal that could be considered truly smart would be something like HST as i stated before and you ignored or even Efflo as you stated. Other heals like PoM come to mind when thinking of some other smart heals.

As you can see each and every healing class has smart heals to some degree so what makes Monks so op in reference to our smart heals? Absolutely nothing
90 Pandaren Monk
LA
17075
Healing Rain, Efflo, Holy Radiance, Light of the Dawn, Wild Growth, Healing Stream Totem, Circle of Healing, and Chain Heal all heal whoever needs the most healing and is in range RIGHT NOW.

Spinning Crane Kick is the only monk ability that actively seeks highly injured targets to heal and has the smallest radius of all aoe abilities. On top of that, revival is the only healing raid cooldown that doesn't actively heal most injured targets, it's just a one off blanket.

Renewing Mists jumps to the furthest target that is missing any health (or closest if unglyphed). Not most injured person in the room between 0 and 40 yards, just the farthest person away missing any health at all. That's not even close to the same realm of smart healing as any of the other spells and uplift is directly tied to it and you're stuck healing just those specific people for the next 18(more if TFT'd) seconds. There is no smart-healing involved here and every single uplift is tied to the same people for the duration of each rem instance. Every other spell will select new targets with each cast and in the case of ones that last over a duration (outside of wild growth), will ACTIVELY CHANGE TARGETS TO WHOEVER NEEDS HEALING (totems, ground effects including SCK).
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
@Geodew Reglitch truly is not one of the best resources to gain monk info from, his information even in his "Serpent's Accord" has numerous errors to it and he often gives advice half heartedly only giving part of the story instead of all that is needed to execute whatever question has been asked of MMO forums/him.

I would like to return to the original topic though, Monk Mastery being incidentally Nerfed by capital the number of targets on multiple spells through true xpac without any change to the coefficients that help to spawn them. In other words monks are having to gain thousands of stat points of mastery to make the stat perform as well as it did the previous patch evertime a patch drops. When gaining more stats a player should see an increase in throughput they shouldn't be trying trying to maintain what they already had.
90 Pandaren Monk
LA
17075
The SCK change alone nerfed our proc chance in a stacked situation by 75% with no compensation. Holy priest mastery tick change got their mastery a 4% buff :).
90 Pandaren Monk
15125
10/17/2013 01:53 PMPosted by Lumiair
Almost every competent MW that I have talked to thinks that Reglitch is, and has always been a joke, and should generally best be ignored.


Ehh, reglitch has his moments. He's a nice guy he and I generally talk about random !@#$ over twitter.

I would say reglitch knows a lot of correct things about monks (What he's talking about in this post, crit being op and what trinkets to use.)

If you ignore his salty qq posts on mmo :P he's okay. He is A LOT better than some of the other posters on MMO, Floopa and Geodew for example are far worse than Reglitch on MMO.

Also @Zombie, Spirit is better than Mastery for progression for a few reasons.

1. With Surging Mist Glyph gaining popularity, Spirit helps sustain spamming it.
2. It you don't have to drink for any amount of time because of the extra spirit. That's worth the trade of 10 extra mastery balls you might get over an encounter.
3. You're going to screw up your regen on progression. Either from over fistweaving or overuse of surging mist. So It helps there.
4. Mostly importantly Expertise Hard cap!!!

THAT BEING SAID, you still reforge out of all your spirit in favor of haste hardcap/crit.
What this means is if you can reforge into mastery over spirit, you'd probably keep the spirit for progression.

Now to the point of this thread, my only problem with them buffing mastery scaling. Is they would have to massively nerf base mastery and 2pc t16. Mastery with a raid that's half smart with Enduring Healing Spheres, Generally is 3rd or 4th on my meters.

I understand the trade off. But if mastery was strong, you'd drop back down to 6141 and gain a lot of extra mastery.

However, I do believe they should rebuff Spinning Crane Kick's mastery scaling. Like Panda said, there's zero reason blizzard can't do this after buffing holy priests mastery.

Also can someone give a TL;DR of what Geodew just said, considering he can not format what post and it is extremely difficult to read.
Edited by Suplift on 10/17/2013 5:44 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
*raises fist at the new alliance version of the Suplift I used to know* :P
90 Pandaren Monk
LA
17075
Mastery with a raid that's half smart with Enduring Healing Spheres, Generally is 3rd or 4th on my meters.
Let's not pretend that high end raid dps bothers running into these on purpose. But yes, it's always been a significant portion of our healing. My mastery is roughly 3-4% less than it was last tier though, not counting 2pc. This could be because of a variety of reasons but I'm sure reduced proc chances isn't helping.
90 Blood Elf Monk
17050
Yeah.

I broke up with Suplift. His new faction is filthy and stupid.

Someone tl;dr the thread for me while I play Pokemon.
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