Gift of the Serpent Incidental nerfs

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90 Pandaren Priest
8295
blizzard please make a minor nerf to resto shaman so tiberria has something else to do
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
I really don't like this word "gutting"

Monk Mana regen is nowhere near as broken as it was last tier at least by my experience.

Most monks at this point have near as much if not more spirit than a comparable healing class excluding shamans.

Just because shamans require high spirit does not mean they should look at another class and yell nerf to compensate for a design they don't like on their class.

Tiberria has solely turned this thread from a discussion about our mastery being nerfed to another cry thread about MW mana regen
Edited by Zombiewu on 10/19/2013 6:19 PM PDT
90 Orc Shaman
HC
16470
Just because shamans require high spirit does not mean they should look at another class and yell nerf to compensate for a design they don't like on their class.


We don't, don't fall into the foolishness that is simple minded shaman. Shamans only get high spirit for mana tide to give other healers more mana and that's only in 25, shamans who have extreme levels of spirit in 10 are just uncomfortable and frankly, bad.
90 Night Elf Druid
12140
Y'all hate on Tiberria a lot. And I mean, you really hate on him.

He may have derailed it but y'all let him. It's not like it hasn't been interesting.
Edited by Cinnabuns on 10/19/2013 6:48 PM PDT
90 Troll Shaman
18930
10/19/2013 06:39 PMPosted by Sensations
Just because shamans require high spirit does not mean they should look at another class and yell nerf to compensate for a design they don't like on their class.


We don't, don't fall into the foolishness that is simple minded shaman. Shamans only get high spirit for mana tide to give other healers more mana and that's only in 25, shamans who have extreme levels of spirit in 10 are just uncomfortable and frankly, bad.


You act as if that is MTT is the primary reason most 25 man Shaman run in the 12k-17k Spirit range. It really isn't even about MTT anymore as much as it's about not wanting/enjoying using a huge amount of GCDs on totemic recall and dropping Magma totems during meta procs to allow the lower Spirit levels. You can rail all you want about wasting itemization in Spirit, but all you are doing is trading itemization in Spirit for a huge loss of GCD/active casting time. You don't gain anything from that trade off, especially to stack Mastery, when Mastery (in a typical 25H environment) has 1/3 to 1/8 of the value of other stats. If you were to try your current build in a 25 man environment, you would be quite frankly gimping yourself.

You are the one that seems to have insecurity issues and immediately dismiss that any stat build or play style other than your own personal preference is "wrong" and "bad". It isn't just this tier, you pull this crap constantly, because you are more interested in stoking your own ego than posting constructively.
90 Troll Shaman
18930


Monk Mana regen is nowhere near as broken as it was last tier at least by my experience.

Most monks at this point have near as much if not more spirit than a comparable healing class excluding shamans.


Just, what? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure there is no other healing spec in 25H progression that commonly runs below 12,000 Spirit. Also, Shaman generally run at lower Spirit levels than Holy Priests, Resto Druids, and Holy Paladins in most cases, so it isn't a Shaman thing in any way. You can't expect to be able to run at half the Spirit levels of other classes and still have your secondary stats be as good as those of other classes.
90 Orc Shaman
HC
16470


We don't, don't fall into the foolishness that is simple minded shaman. Shamans only get high spirit for mana tide to give other healers more mana and that's only in 25, shamans who have extreme levels of spirit in 10 are just uncomfortable and frankly, bad.


You act as if that is MTT is the primary reason most 25 man Shaman run in the 12k-17k Spirit range. It really isn't even about MTT anymore as much as it's about not wanting/enjoying using a huge amount of GCDs on totemic recall and dropping Magma totems during meta procs to allow the lower Spirit levels. You can rail all you want about wasting itemization in Spirit, but all you are doing is trading itemization in Spirit for a huge loss of GCD/active casting time. You don't gain anything from that trade off, especially to stack Mastery, when Mastery (in a typical 25H environment) has 1/3 to 1/8 of the value of other stats. If you were to try your current build in a 25 man environment, you would be quite frankly gimping yourself.

You are the one that seems to have insecurity issues and immediately dismiss that any stat build or play style other than your own personal preference is "wrong" and "bad". It isn't just this tier, you pull this crap constantly, because you are more interested in stoking your own ego than posting constructively.


Actually if you had basic reading comprehension you would understand what the word subjective means and how I used it in my post before that one. Who are you to say my build wouldn't work in 25? Most people thought it wouldn't work in 10, yet it does. You say I have insecurity issues for dismissing certain things, yet you just dismissed my build in 25 yet you have no valid information or fact that it wouldn't work, so who's the insecure one, tiberria?

I don't stroke my own ego, I'm just saying there is more than one way. And sorry yes, if you have extreme spirit levels in 10 man, you are gimping yourself. Mana tide is huge, when you give each of your healers 54k mana per mana tide in 25, compared to 2(3 max) in 10, you can't ignore that.Just remember, healing isn't dps.
Edited by Sensations on 10/19/2013 7:06 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
15125
Just, what? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure there is no other healing spec in 25H progression that commonly runs below 12,000 Spirit


Disc Priests commonly run 9k-11k in 25 man's.
90 Troll Shaman
18930


You act as if that is MTT is the primary reason most 25 man Shaman run in the 12k-17k Spirit range. It really isn't even about MTT anymore as much as it's about not wanting/enjoying using a huge amount of GCDs on totemic recall and dropping Magma totems during meta procs to allow the lower Spirit levels. You can rail all you want about wasting itemization in Spirit, but all you are doing is trading itemization in Spirit for a huge loss of GCD/active casting time. You don't gain anything from that trade off, especially to stack Mastery, when Mastery (in a typical 25H environment) has 1/3 to 1/8 of the value of other stats. If you were to try your current build in a 25 man environment, you would be quite frankly gimping yourself.

You are the one that seems to have insecurity issues and immediately dismiss that any stat build or play style other than your own personal preference is "wrong" and "bad". It isn't just this tier, you pull this crap constantly, because you are more interested in stoking your own ego than posting constructively.


Actually if you had basic reading comprehension you would understand what the word subjective means and how I used it in my post before that one. Who are you to say my build wouldn't work in 25? Most people thought it wouldn't work in 10, yet it does. You say I have insecurity issues for dismissing certain things, yet you just dismissed my build in 25 yet you have no valid information or fact that it wouldn't work, so who's the insecure one, tiberria?

I don't stroke my own ego, I'm just saying there is more than one way. And sorry yes, if you have extreme spirit levels in 10 man, you are gimping yourself. Mana tide is huge, when you give each of your healers 54k mana per mana tide in 25, compared to 2(3 max) in 10, you can't ignore that.Just remember, healing isn't dps.


And, you are already dismissing things once again by saying that "you are gimping yourself if you have extreme Spirit levels in 10 man" after spending your previous post saying "Shaman that do not follow my build are bad". Who is to say that high Spirit builds aren't a viable option in 10 man? It's the same basic logic where you are trading GCDs for more secondary stats.

If you run at say 15,000 SPI vs 8000, that's ~530,000 mana over a 10 minute fight. You would drop HST about 20 times over 10 minutes. Let's say you don't recall it at all because of the extra mana, that's 282,000 of the extra mana plus 20 extra GCDs gained. To make up the extra mana deficit with the lower Spirit build, you are going to need to drop and recall about 19 Magma totems during meta procs, which is a further 38 GCDs. Let's say some of them coincide with HST recalls and count it as a loss of 30 GCDs.

Based on that assumption, you are basically trading having 8000 less Spirit and 8000 more secondary stats for 50 GCDs over a 10 minute fight. At a 1.2 second GCD, that is 60 seconds or 10% of your casting time. You are only going to break even on that strategy if 8000 secondary stats adds enough throughput to make up having 10% less GCDs. Depending on the secondary stat, they are generally worth 900-2000 itemization points for 1% more output (based on previous testing I was doing), so I am highly skeptical that you come in much better than breaking even in best case scenarios, with it being an actual output loss in some cases.

Explain how it is gimping a 10 man Resto Shaman to say run with 15,000 Spirit and make the most of the extra GCDs - completely ignoring the MTT impact. Or, are you just going to dismiss it as a "wrong playstyle" again and then try and act like you aren't?
90 Orc Shaman
HC
16470


Actually if you had basic reading comprehension you would understand what the word subjective means and how I used it in my post before that one. Who are you to say my build wouldn't work in 25? Most people thought it wouldn't work in 10, yet it does. You say I have insecurity issues for dismissing certain things, yet you just dismissed my build in 25 yet you have no valid information or fact that it wouldn't work, so who's the insecure one, tiberria?

I don't stroke my own ego, I'm just saying there is more than one way. And sorry yes, if you have extreme spirit levels in 10 man, you are gimping yourself. Mana tide is huge, when you give each of your healers 54k mana per mana tide in 25, compared to 2(3 max) in 10, you can't ignore that.Just remember, healing isn't dps.


And, you are already dismissing things once again by saying that "you are gimping yourself if you have extreme Spirit levels in 10 man" after spending your previous post saying "Shaman that do not follow my build are bad". Who is to say that high Spirit builds aren't a viable option in 10 man? It's the same basic logic where you are trading GCDs for more secondary stats.

If you run at say 15,000 SPI vs 8000, that's ~530,000 mana over a 10 minute fight. You would drop HST about 20 times over 10 minutes. Let's say you don't recall it at all because of the extra mana, that's 282,000 of the extra mana plus 20 extra GCDs gained. To make up the extra mana deficit with the lower Spirit build, you are going to need to drop and recall about 19 Magma totems during meta procs, which is a further 38 GCDs. Let's say some of them coincide with HST recalls and count it as a loss of 30 GCDs.

Based on that assumption, you are basically trading having 8000 less Spirit and 8000 more secondary stats for 50 GCDs over a 10 minute fight. At a 1.2 second GCD, that is 60 seconds or 10% of your casting time. You are only going to break even on that strategy if 8000 secondary stats adds enough throughput to make up having 10% less GCDs. Depending on the secondary stat, they are generally worth 900-2000 itemization points for 1% more output (based on previous testing I was doing), so I am highly skeptical that you come in much better than breaking even in best case scenarios, with it being an actual output loss in some cases.


I'm not going to argue these entire points with you, but there is a simple rebuttal. Not every fight has pulsing raid-wide aoe damage, there are a lot off free gcd's on every fight. See, a smart shaman would know how many free globals we have..

Explain how it is gimping a 10 man Resto Shaman to say run with 15,000 Spirit and make the most of the extra GCDs - completely ignoring the MTT impact. Or, are you just going to dismiss it as a "wrong playstyle" again and then try and act like you aren't?


Because we don't need the mana, totemic recall easily makes up for any spirit we don't have. Yes, it does take up a gcd but outside of a fight with pulsing constant aoe, the impact is near moot. Healing isn't about theoretical, it's about experience. In theory you may have a small point, good thing though your point means nothing in reality.

We really shouldn't derail this thread tiberria, you know how our arguments end so I don't know why you try with me. Just stop, you mess with the bull you will get the horns.

Disc Priests commonly run 9k-11k in 25 man's.


See tiberria, don't try to talk to me about 10m when you still have 25 to learn.
Edited by Sensations on 10/19/2013 7:33 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Priest
8295
i farted
90 Blood Elf Priest
15210
Monk Mana regen is nowhere near as broken as it was last tier at least by my experience.

Most monks at this point have near as much if not more spirit than a comparable healing class excluding shamans.


Uh. We have even more mana in 5.4 due to Chi Brew mana tea buff (which I can only assume was put in for PvP reasons) and rising item level. So what do you mean by "broken" here

Also, lol at how many times Tibberia has realized s/he is wrong and changed the subject as a result, now we're talking about shamans, ok then
Edited by Geodew on 10/19/2013 10:50 PM PDT
90 Orc Shaman
HC
16470
Also, lol at how many times Tibberia has realized s/he is wrong and changed the subject as a result, now we're talking about shamans, ok then


Bear
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
Uh. We have even more mana in 5.4 due to Chi Brew mana tea buff (which I can only assume was put in for PvP reasons) and rising item level


Fewer Leg. Meta Procs, and not running a regen trinket this tier = more necessity for spirit regardless of getting more mana tea stacks than before. also SCK spam is costly
As well by what I've seen most Monks aren't using Leg. Meta procs for regen anymore rather throughput instead which could be a result of higher mana regen but in order to actually go this route one would again need more spirit.
Edited by Zombiewu on 10/20/2013 1:04 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
15210
10/20/2013 12:55 AMPosted by Zombiewu
Uh. We have even more mana in 5.4 due to Chi Brew mana tea buff (which I can only assume was put in for PvP reasons) and rising item level


Fewer Leg. Meta Procs, and not running a regen trinket this tier = more necessity for spirit regardless of getting more mana tea stacks than before. also SCK spam is costly


Legendary proc reduction is -2k Spirit at most I believe, I did the math awhile back. More than made up by Chi Brew. And we're ignoring/dropping regen trinkets like HLG/Samophlange BECAUSE we don't need the regen. I do see your point, though, but I think chi brew and rising item level (and thus Spirit and mana tea crits) far outweighs the increased mana spent of SCK and mana dropped from HLG. Mana is higher this tier, not worse
Edited by Geodew on 10/20/2013 1:01 AM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
10320
And we're ignoring/dropping regen trinkets like HLG/Samophlange BECAUSE we don't need the regen


I believe that is false, the other trinkets are just far better and the spirit provided through amp makes it all possible and even more so the better our gear gets.

I would like to return to the original topic though, the fact that I have about 2k more Mastery than last patch and have seen little to no improvement in Mastery healing or orb spawn rate, if anything I feel as if I still don't see as many orbs as last patch.
Edited by Zombiewu on 10/20/2013 1:07 AM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
LA
17075

I would like to return to the original topic though, the fact that I have about 2k more Mastery than last patch and have seen little to no improvement in Mastery healing or orb spawn rate, if anything I feel as if I still don't see as many orbs as last patch.
Using SCK more than last tier and have more mastery, my mastery healing has gone down by 2-3% of my overall healing. Not counting 2pc.
90 Blood Elf Priest
15210
10/20/2013 01:06 AMPosted by Zombiewu
I believe that is false, the other trinkets are just far better and the spirit provided through amp makes it all possible and even more so the better our gear gets.


Not really, see MW BiS discussion starting here, Spirit loss was barely even considered: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1335921-MW-5-4-BiS-Discussion?p=22478661&viewfull=1#post22478661

I would like to return to the original topic though, the fact that I have about 2k more Mastery than last patch and have seen little to no improvement in Mastery healing or orb spawn rate, if anything I feel as if I still don't see as many orbs as last patch.


I feel like I'm seeing more orbs up on average (and marginally more orb consumption) because of running with Enduring Healing Sphere.

Also the 5.4 BiS has not that much more Mastery than 5.3 BiS; however, one naturally picks up Mastery pieces as stepping stones, so you will have more Mastery until you can get the actual BiS pieces. For example, I changed my 535 Heroic spirit/crit weapon for a 553 spirit/mastery weapon because of the spellpower and intellect increases, etc.

Despite Tiberria's claim that I'm "Reglitch's lackey" (lol) I don't entirely agree with Reglitch regarding Mastery, and he knows it. He says in OP "Pretty much every issue with monks right now could be fixed by making mastery scaling work properly." His attitude seems to be that it'd be fixed, desirable and interesting, by making it a better stat mathematically. However, I'd personally like to see GotS removed completely as a class mechanic; I don't find the gameplay of "Hey, I put the orb there, now heal yourself. DPS loss? Not my problem," very compelling. I'd much prefer more controlled healing, which is something I (and many other MWers) believe is something MW is lacking. ~15% of my healing coming from people accidentally walking over green balls (~8-10% GotS + 5-6% 2T16) is stupid, and if they buffed Mastery they are going to balance us around the fact that it would do a lot of raw HPS. They won't let us sit as raw HPS king, just because we can't control it. (And don't get me started on ReM again.) GotS is a stupid design for a healing spec. Healers need to be able to control when their throughput happens to do a reasonable job.

Woops that turned into a rant didn't it
Edited by Geodew on 10/20/2013 6:06 AM PDT
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