Ret still not required for RBGs/large PvP grp

90 Human Paladin
10300
Yerp 8-9 years on, Ret still the dog class of the PvP community, it may be alright in PvE, I dunno haven't smashed the recount meters for 18 months or more in raids seriously, and only briefly ran some of this LFR garbage early on in this boring expansion.

Regardless of this it seems even low MMR RBG teams do not want Ret, it's just a given. The little kiddies or otherwise just read the PvP threads etc, and it's just not fashionable to have a Ret.
Everytime I have been remotely given a go in a Low MMR RBG I top the damage, KBs, and jag out 3-5 million heals, and I use my utility on my teammates (HoPs on healers under heavy melee pressure, HoF on wars so they keep up the snares/pressure on ranged/cc/healers, HoS on magic afflicted/damage reduction on teammates and the list goes on)
I can see why Ret is shunned in the current season, again, YET AGAIN, we have overbuffed healing classes (2s is a joke atm totally, never seen it so bad and so hard for ret to compete), warriors are turning up in even randoms in numbers of 30-50% of the opposing team, warlocks just stand in the middle of the enemy click one button and gleefully self heal while offloading and killing numerous enemies while they take a million damage without heals, and the list of shortcomings of this game continue, 9 YEARS ON WITH ALL THE DATA OVER THOSE LAST 9 YEARS COLLECTED.
Now either the blizzie employees are dumb as dogs**t, or they deliberately do it, due to certain developers etc playing a particular class. But certainly since day dot all pure dps/heals have reigned supreme, and hybrids have suffered severely (bar druids really since TBC and the feral/resto buffs).

So 9 years on Blizzard I just want to know wtf are you going to do to make Retribution a viable RBG spec, we should be competitive in large group play where our utility should reign supreme, instead the very thing you said you never wanted in game again, class stacking like TBC has yet again crept into the game due to poor game design as opposed to "bring the player", so you have failed once more. {edit} I can actually understand it would be hard to balance classes for small group play, i.e. even upto 5's Arena, but not large group play as per a raid composition, Ret should be able to hold it's own and have a slot in the raid for PvE and PvP applications, and that is not the case yet again in PvP.

The fear talent change was pure garbage, good for holy, garbage for melee, and now we are the only melee class that doesn't have a snare without MASSIVE DPS REDUCTION due to SoT to SoJ disparity and we lack pressure if we have the snare seal. what other melee class suffers that sort of dps disparity for snaring? NONE! as usual.

And what about our offheals? That's meant to balance everything up right Blizzie? Well with the sheer stupidity of your over reaching cc in this game now trying to balance for Holy/Disc Preist/generally resto heals, it screws hybrids with offhealing right over generally speaking, hell I've been cc'd consistently for over a minute in games, it's hilarious, I'd have to pop my long CD DS and/or EMFH, then we have nothing (I mean DS is removed instantly by warriors/preists as soon as it goes up anyway, INSTANTLY EVEN IN RANDOMS, IT'S HILARIOUS, because preists can just spam mass dispel with glee, no thought processes or penalties needed, SFA mana usage etc)

What are you going to do about Ret? I don't even know after 8 years why I bother posting tbh, you morons have had 9 years to sort this out, and still screw it up, as you would say in game "your bad!" real bad
Edited by Baldwyn on 10/28/2013 6:38 AM PDT
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41 Blood Elf Paladin
0
signed.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
8390
I agree.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
21020
you sure do have a ton of HKs on a spec you seem to rather hate lol
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97 Night Elf Death Knight
11600
10/28/2013 03:30 AMPosted by Baldwyn
now we are the only melee class that doesn't have a snare without MASSIVE DPS REDUCTION due to SoT to SoJ disparity


Glyph of Burden of Guilt
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90 Human Paladin
10300
10/28/2013 05:49 AMPosted by Sartharia
now we are the only melee class that doesn't have a snare without MASSIVE DPS REDUCTION due to SoT to SoJ disparity


Glyph of Burden of Guilt


not acceptable sry, why would I use this with such a large CD and be interrupted 100% of the time in melee range and/or duked by a shaman etc from range every time, even in randoms, it's pathetic.
We need our current SoT dps and a snare like every other class in the game, otherwise that is a flaw for Ret and it's a tick against us. DK spam HB like scrubs and snare whole teams, that's why they are still brought to RBGs for that alone. Warrior AoE BS snare etc etc. need I say more
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100 Human Paladin
16085
not acceptable sry, why would I use this with such a large CD and be interrupted 100% of the time in melee range and/or duked by a shaman etc from range every time, even in randoms, it's pathetic.


The tooltip still has the old Turn Evil text, but that's not what it does anymore. The Burden of Guilt glyph gives you a 50% movement speed snare back on your Judgment.
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90 Human Paladin
10300
10/28/2013 06:42 AMPosted by Roahin
not acceptable sry, why would I use this with such a large CD and be interrupted 100% of the time in melee range and/or duked by a shaman etc from range every time, even in randoms, it's pathetic.


The tooltip still has the old Turn Evil text, but that's not what it does anymore. The Burden of Guilt glyph gives you a 50% movement speed snare back on your Judgment.


correct I use it atm, it's garbage, but at least its something, I actually find myself seal twisting between SoJ and SoT on flag carriers etc.

regardless Turn Evil is not viable for ret as a cc alternative, it gets interrupted all the time, due to us having to be in melee range.
Edited by Baldwyn on 10/28/2013 6:48 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
16085
correct I use it atm, it's garbage, but at least its something, I actually find myself seal twisting between SoJ and SoT on flag carriers etc.


Then your earlier assertion that we have no snares was not only wrong, it was an intentioned lie. The snare is fantastic and a staple for anyone PvPing. The fact that they removed it off the Talent tree and let us now use it with impunity while keeping Seal of Truth for maximum damage output and our choice of Fist of Justice or Evil is a Point of View? Kiting classes can't get away from us and melee classes can't catch us.

[EDIT to respond to your EDIT]:
regardless Turn Evil is not viable for ret as a cc alternative, it gets interrupted all the time, due to us having to be in melee range.

So? I don't know anyone who runs Retribution with Turn Evil. Since MoP released, the biggest decision we had was between the snare of Burden of Guilt or the extra stun of Fist of Justice. Now we get both at the same time. I don't begrudge Holydins their fear because I now have my cake and get to eat it too.
Edited by Roahin on 10/28/2013 6:53 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11665
regardless Turn Evil is not viable for ret as a cc alternative, it gets interrupted all the time, due to us having to be in melee range.


Even before they changed the talent, the most viable talent was still FoJ, why are you talking about cc alternatives when FoJ is unchanged? Pointless QQ right there.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10220
BoG glyph plus fist of justice is win. If you're opponent is kiting like a mad man, then yeah, you may need to switch to justice. But 9 times out of 10, that glyph with Pursuit of Justice is enough to keep us on target while still utilizing Seal of Truth. If you are about to burst a target that is kiting, you can swap to justice right before the burst and benefit from five stacked censure, the snare from justice, and the higher weapon damage of Justice.

Also, if a RBG leader doesn't want to take a Ret, one of a few things are occurring:

1) He has a per-determined team layout for which Ret isn't in the equation. This can apply to any spec. "Man, I really want a warlock...Enh Shaman? Gtfo"
2) He's susceptible to generic Ret bias, and if so, !@#$ 'em. :)
3) He doesn't know you or your skills, thus has no real basis for which to trust you. "Hi Ret, are you good? Sure, come along, !@#$ it!"
4) He is stacking geared FOTM. (Warriors)

Ret can get into rated BGs, you just have to get in through the back door. Join a PVP guild, run arena with prominent members, get in good with them. When they see you 2 on 1 people in arena, your name will come up. "We need another DPS or two for RBGs tonight" "Nah man, take Ret [insert name here], he's beast"*

I never cared enough to get into high rated BGs, I literally run like maybe two a week for extra points and fun. But I never have an issue getting my foot in the door. Our biggest issue at the moment is warriors are much more desired. But, if you can outplay the guilds warrior...
Edited by Andhar on 10/28/2013 7:39 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10300

Then your earlier assertion that we have no snares was not only wrong, it was an intentioned lie. The snare is fantastic and a staple for anyone PvPing. The fact that they removed it off the Talent tree and let us now use it with impunity while keeping Seal of Truth for maximum damage output and our choice of Fist of Justice or Evil is a Point of View? Kiting classes can't get away from us and melee classes can't catch us.

[EDIT to respond to your EDIT]:
regardless Turn Evil is not viable for ret as a cc alternative, it gets interrupted all the time, due to us having to be in melee range.

So? I don't know anyone who runs Retribution with Turn Evil. Since MoP released, the biggest decision we had was between the snare of Burden of Guilt or the extra stun of Fist of Justice. Now we get both at the same time. I don't begrudge Holydins their fear because I now have my cake and get to eat it too.


Umm, I never lied mate, a 2 second snare is garbage, however I do alternate between it and other main glyphs, it is enough at times if I have a dedicated "snarer" with me, however you can never ever rely on someone else to 100% snare all the time, particularly for a KB in any form of PvP.
Secondly I seal twist and cop the dps downgrade by doing so, it's laborious and no other class in the game has to do that to snare people, geezuz Frost DK's spam a button 5 times in a row, do a squillion AoE damage and snare whole teams, fricking skilless, Warriors atm do the same thing basically. Every ranged or melee has a decent snare that does not direstly lose sustained dps except Ret, we have to use SoJ for the 8 second snare, which is a massive dps loss. Is that fair to you?
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90 Human Paladin
10300
10/28/2013 06:59 AMPosted by Maebyfunke
regardless Turn Evil is not viable for ret as a cc alternative, it gets interrupted all the time, due to us having to be in melee range.


Even before they changed the talent, the most viable talent was still FoJ, why are you talking about cc alternatives when FoJ is unchanged? Pointless QQ right there.


That's fine, so let's take FoJ into account in relation to the rest of the cc in the game. So let's look at our direct competitors Arms Warriors and Frost DKs, they are heavy plate wearing melee with a different twist for group dynamics (although Frost and Arms have similar group attributes overall). So ....

Frost DK:- get a stun like Ret on shortish CD, they have AoE snare (5 in a row max. spammable) Zero dps loss, Chains of ice snare, massive burst on similar Cds to Ret, good damage mitigation especially against casters, reasonable self heals, Death grip gap closer 100% guaranteed (potentially 2), break fear ability.

Arms Warrior:- 2 charge stuns 100% guaranteed gap closer, potential other stun, fear, can enrage and remove fear on himself, very good mitigation and can reduce melee damage massively with sword and board until recovery, very good second wind heals, 2 spell reflects (1 AoE spell reflect), constant sustained very high damage. Can aoE snare or solo target snare at minimal if not Zero dps loss bar hamstring usage.

Now the big thing here is both other heavy plate melee are better to stick on a target, 100% guarantee to gap close on a target, and arguably do better sustained dps overall, I must admit, I think the frost may not stack up so well even vs ret in single target dps, but yeah, regardless they can put on way more pressure, on a target at any given time. And they can break fear twice without losing defensive CDs, Ret has to use DS if excessive cc is being handed out.

Now I'm just merely trying to stir up conversation on this matter, what are we compared too, and why are we generally being omitted without even being given a go up front?
I literally have talked to other rets, talked to friends in game, talked to randoms, talked to a plethora of people, all say the same thing, Ret is not viable enough to bring along.

Why? Like literally instead of people acting like little kids in here like Lobster and throwing out insults, I would rather have constructive conversation.

Now my experience in recent times is not of a high caliber, I've been high 1800s in RBGs in recent seasons with a casual group, it was fun, and I only had trouble when our ranged/cc weren't doing their job. I would suspect Ret would encounter severe difficulties at higher ratings particularly 2200+, where ranged/cc players in particular would be insanely good cc and string cc chains together rendering our offheals/utility useless when your constantly feared/stunned/silenced by every class in the game.

That's all i'm saying, how could ret be better balanced to sort out these issues? I think we should be viable in large group play, i'm not worried about Arena, it was always a joke.
Edited by Baldwyn on 10/28/2013 11:16 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10300
What a toxic little tantrum. Sometimes I think people accidentally post here instead of their e-diaries.

Truth is a lot of specs aren't desired for RBGs, particularly melee. Exclusion is not a purely ret issue.


regardless of your little rant mate, what do you have to offer the conversation?

secondly you clearly don't think a class spec should be viable in large raid group play? That's what i'm talking about? Why can't that be balanced? I'm not talking arena where you will never balance the game, i'm talking 10+ player PvP games.

we should be viable, and yet are considered not worthy of a spot regardless of the player over a ranged/cc or another heavy plate melee.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16050
"Still not required" you mean that out of 34 specs not all of them are required for 10 man pvp groups ?
SHOCKING I SAY
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90 Night Elf Priest
11520
I don't think Rets are gimped or anything like that. They just don't have anything to offer that Holy Paladins don't. Why sacrifice a DPS spot when you can get a healer that can do everything a Ret can do? Ret damage is fine right now, and we have lots of utility and off-heals as usual. I believe the problem lies with what other classes have to offer versus what we have to offer. We don't have anything that is an absolute MUST for RBGs. Why do people bring so many DKs, Rogues WW Monks, and Warriors but almost no other melee specs?

They each have something unique to offer, that's almost necessary for success. Other melee specs just don't have anything worth giving up a spot for. Rogues have Smoke bomb, Warriors have insanely high damage, Bloodbath+Bladestorm is disgusting, and Mass spell reflect can be game-breaking. DKs have gorfiend's grasp and other useful abilities for group play. But what about the majority of other melee classes? They're viable, teams can still win with them there, there's just no real reason to consider taking one when you can have a Mage or Lock with a ton of CC/burst.

I really think this is a tough issue to solve, what can they give to Rets to make them more appealing, but not completely overpowered in other areas of the game? Casters as a whole are just much better in almost every situation. Any ideas? What niche ability should be given to Rets (and other melee) to make them more desirable in RBGs.
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100 Human Paladin
4535
Great post and true. Ret is the garbage spec of wow and this patch Ret is overmatched by every spec.

You should have posted this in the Battleground forums where Blizzard might read it. They dont ever read the class forums. This post needs to be seen by Blizzard
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
21020
THE GOD RETURNS!
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