Ret still not required for RBGs/large PvP grp

100 Human Paladin
16205
For a minute there, I thought OP was Agincourt

Have a class/spec 'required' is a bad design.

Not that its possible to do that anyways, there are more class/spec combos than there are BG spots.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
14095
Frost DK:- get a stun like Ret on shortish CD, they have AoE snare (5 in a row max. spammable) Zero dps loss, Chains of ice snare, massive burst on similar Cds to Ret, good damage mitigation especially against casters, reasonable self heals, Death grip gap closer 100% guaranteed (potentially 2), break fear ability.


Just a note:

-Taking Asphyxiate (DK version of FoJ) means they can't take Chilblains, which means their only slows are Chains of Ice or Remorseless Winter. If the DK DOES take chilblains then yes, they have plenty of spammable slows, but no stun.

-Chains of ice costs a frost rune, which means it limits the amount of Obliterates you can chain. DK damage is very much reduced if they have to use their control tools.

-Both classes burst about the same, true, though Empower Rune Weapon (a key part of Frost burst) is on a 5-min CD, while our Guardian is only a 3-min CD.

-DKs have AMS, Conversion, Icebound fortitude and Death Strike. Paladins have Divine Shield, Divine Protection, Flash of Light and Word of Glory. Conversion is damn powerful, sure, but it also limits their damage output (Death Strike is the same). And while AMS is very powerful, we have bubble.

-Death Grip is the only real gap-closer DKs have that doesn't result in a dps loss (similar to burden of guilt for paladins) and unless they quickly follow it up with a root, slow or stun, it is very easy to bounce out of melee range again. That's one of the reasons their set bonus lets them double-cast it actually, to make it take some effort to counter.

I don't know much about Warriors myself, but if you're going to try and compare two classes to say how terrible one is, make sure you are well-versed in the mechanics of both classes. If there's a reason DKs are more popular than Rets, it's because with how powerful healers are in this game currently, offensive pressure and utility are more useful than defensive. If you have a h-pally who can toss out hands AND big heals, it tends to be more useful to have dps who are purely offensive mechanically.

I would argue that what's holding Rets back is not our mechanics, necessarily, but the fact that powerful healers and the current state of warriors are overshadowing our own strengths.
Edited by Tallén on 10/29/2013 8:52 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10300
Commenting on your livejournal tantrum isn't exactly a rant.


Well it is when personal attacks are placed in with the comments imao. I'm legitimately here to discuss what could possibly be done to sort it, or gain other people's opinions, not have smarta**e comments thrown up by "elitists" who would more than likely be losers in RL if what I've encountered over the past 8 years of WoW holds true. I'm not interested in that garbage, i'm interested in the class I like to chill out on in my spare time is viable or not. You've done it on more than one occasion saying Ret is fine, when clearly it never has been, that's what annoys me personally, people just "take it up the a**e" when it comes to Ret being viable.

I do not want to be OP, our dps is fine atm, I do have a problem when a class spec can't be asked along to fill one of 10/25 positions in a raid whether that be PvE or PvP, in this case my comments are totally in relation to PvP, as that's all I have time to play these days, along with my waning interest.


You already know arena will never be perfectly balanced. If they can't balance 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5, what makes you think 10v10 under similar conditions (instanced PVP) would be different?

It would be nice to play in a world of Warcraft where every spec is well-balanced yet still unique and desirable in competitive PVP, but after 9 years you should know they can't reasonably achieve this.


And as I said, i'm not talking about arenas mate, i'm talking about large group play where across the board balance should be fine in a game like this and it should be viable to invite a ret, an ele/enhance shaman or a boomie or whatever other hybrid tickles your fancy. As you say, it's not just Ret, I realize this, but that's the class spec I play sadly, also as you say, others have a similar issue, and I personally don't think how blizzard goes about buffing FoM and changing it to keep people interested is a good strategy, they would retain just as many doing the right thing across the board.
Your never going to get it perfect, I realize this, and we aren't far off being some sweetspot, but to be shunned baseline, how can you enjoy the game? It's not enjoyable if you can't even get a go, people just say immediately "nah no rets". It hasn't progressed at all from Vanilla/TBC.


Part of it is class mechanic and PVE limitations but the other part is the player community itself. As long as one spec is overpowered, every other spec gets to stand in its shadow whether a spec is balanced or not because everyone is looking for the easiest solution. You can't sit there and judge your own spec based on something that is clearly overtuned and you don't deserve buffs just because someone else got buffs.


I don't want buffs, doing so further screws the game, in fact this is the reason imao, why we are where we are. the amount of cc in the game is outrageous, the amount of burst in game is outrageous at times particularly coupled with the cc. Locks to me need a nerf, they are far too strong, all expansion. now this can work both ways, but when a class spec like Ret is middle ground or weak for all expansions bar 1, that's pathetic imao.


In the case of RBGs, melee have always been at a considerable disadvantage. Ranged specs have always been more effective in open field combat and that's just how it is. The only melee who are brought to RBGs have AOE gimmicks (DKs, rogues) or are overtuned according to the season (warriors). Ret is a mostly balanced spec in MOP but as long as someone else is overpowered, and as long as holy shares literally all of our utility, we won't be the coolest kids in PVP school. Although holy isn't as strong as it used to be, there's no reason to bring a defensive melee spec to an RBG when you can bring a defensive healer instead without losing utility?


Agreed with first comment, however warriors haven't always been on the wrong end of the stick with 100% guaranteed gap closer + select defensive CDs, nor DKs for that matter, again 100% guaranteed gap closer at the core.
Agree with all this basically, so my point is what needs to happen so I can play my favourite spec in game in my spare time that I pay for without having people say baseline "nah no rets" and if the answer is nothing, well then it's time to join the 1.3 million that mass left the game last quarter, this is all that is left for me ingame to enjoy, the rest is boring.


Despite knee-jerk reactions, the answer to ret's RBG representation is not as simple as "give them something new and powerful!" It's a complicated issue and it's the same issue most specs face today, especially melee.


I don't want anything new and powerful mate, we are generally fine, I just want the game balanced overall so we are an "option" and not totally discarded, that means other class changes and a toning down of cc etc to make us remotely viable


So, instead of complaining, talk about how melee in general should be more viable in competitive PVP and how it can be done, such as by altering terrain and/or by making ranged less mobile. Discuss meaningful ways Blizzard can differentiate ret from holy, preferably without creating new abilities.


Yep well....
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10300
[quote]
I would argue that what's holding Rets back is not our mechanics, necessarily, but the fact that powerful healers and the current state of warriors are overshadowing our own strengths.


Very true, and mate most know the score with abilities, sure I actually didn't edit my post re: DK talents, I knew they have to miss out in one area to take stun sry. And realistically frost DKs atm aren't in an exceptionally good place like us, granted and was reflected in my original comments. They really do get a slot over a ret though purely due to AoE snaring from what I can gather.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10300
For a minute there, I thought OP was Agincourt

Have a class/spec 'required' is a bad design.

Not that its possible to do that anyways, there are more class/spec combos than there are BG spots.


I don't want a class spec "required" I want a class spec at the very least "optional" Rets along with a few others aren't even "optional" hence my post.

I do not want buffs, we are almost pretty balanced, it's the other aspects if the game need to be sorted to make us "optional/viable" in a large group setting, I personally don't think that's much to ask tbh, arena is a different story.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10300
"Still not required" you mean that out of 34 specs not all of them are required for 10 man pvp groups ?
SHOCKING I SAY


It is, it's pathetic tbh, Arena's a different story, raids in PvE and PvP it means you have failed at the game design if class specs can't even be an option, and discarded immediately without any forethought
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8640
Reroll or GTFO
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10300
10/30/2013 12:01 AMPosted by Lobster


Well it is when personal attacks are placed in with the comments imao. I'm legitimately here to discuss what could possibly be done to sort it, or gain other people's opinions, not have smarta**e comments thrown up by "elitists" who would more than likely be losers in RL if what I've encountered over the past 8 years of WoW holds true. I'm not interested in that garbage, i'm interested in the class I like to chill out on in my spare time is viable or not. You've done it on more than one occasion saying Ret is fine, when clearly it never has been, that's what annoys me personally, people just "take it up the a**e" when it comes to Ret being viable.

Blindly raging at/insulting Blizzard employees in your original post isn't a personal attack but someone calling your post "toxic" is a personal attack? What?

Ret has been comparatively stable while other specs have been overtuned or undertuned through the course of the season/tier. Compared to previous expansions ret has seen little change in MoP and that is a very good thing. It means we are legitimately fine in most aspects lol.

The reason players think it's not fine is when groups would rather take a warrior or a holy paladin instead. They don't realize most competitive teams are only interested in broken mechanics and overpowered specs. Instead of blaming a playerbase hellbent on cheesing rating, you blame your own spec because it's not considered overpowered and can't carry those teams to victory. The problem isn't ret (and hasn't been this expansion), it's the downward spiral of PVP in general.

The scale and objectives of RBGs make group comps even more restrictive than much smaller arena teams. Melee in general need help. Given ret's broad toolkit, differentiating holy and ret is likely the best way to make ret more attractive to RBG teams.

I don't want buffs, doing so further screws the game, in fact this is the reason imao, why we are where we are. the amount of cc in the game is outrageous, the amount of burst in game is outrageous at times particularly coupled with the cc. Locks to me need a nerf, they are far too strong, all expansion. now this can work both ways, but when a class spec like Ret is middle ground or weak for all expansions bar 1, that's pathetic imao.

Middle ground is the best place to be, hands down. Being an outlier means nerfs and we all know Blizzard doesn't have the best aim when it comes to mid-season tuning.

Agree with all this basically, so my point is what needs to happen so I can play my favourite spec in game in my spare time that I pay for without having people say baseline "nah no rets" and if the answer is nothing, well then it's time to join the 1.3 million that mass left the game last quarter, this is all that is left for me ingame to enjoy, the rest is boring.

Actually most of those accounts were asian. They pay hourly over there, not monthly, and once they've devoured the new content there's no reason to keep playing.

Perhaps you, too, have come to a point in your gaming experience where there's no reason to keep playing. It happens to everyone eventually. You don't have to stick around and be unhappy.

I don't want anything new and powerful mate, we are generally fine, I just want the game balanced overall so we are an "option" and not totally discarded, that means other class changes and a toning down of cc etc to make us remotely viable

You want balance but you seem more interested in complaining than thinking of meaningful ways to achieve said balance. Your original post is little more than a personal rant.


1. I am a paying customer of the game and I can dish out any comments I think are applicable to a poorly designed game and class spec, they've had 9 YEARS to fix the problem.
I am a businessman myself, own my own civil engineering firm, if I was this bad at my profession, buildings would fall down and I would be sued, and people would quite rightfully complain at poor timing, poor design and no value for money.

2. I'm not talking about being mediocre or anything else, i'm talking about being viable as a class spec as others are, it would be ok if ret was from time to time weakish, but over the entirety of my 8 years of gameplay, weak was terrible, literally garbage for the first two expansions, 50% of a dps class in dps performance, and the same utility that a holy would bring basically. the only difference now is, we are 10-20% behind a pure dps class, and still suffer from the same blight of a holy bringing the same utility.

3. I've suggested that the cc in the game has to be reduced, geezuz if you look at my posts over the years, this has always been the case. The case that those given 2-3 cc abilities (namely ranged/cc dps or rogues), and by cc I mean snares, fears, stuns, disorients. these classes have reigned supreme in arenas, purely due to the baseline fact they have excessive cc, nothing to do with skillful gameplay.
so I have made suggestions, but blizzard seems hell bent on buffing ranged/cc dps and the pures beyond belief, and basically saying hybrids are balanced because they can offheal. Where as the reality is, offheals are worth nothing with a small mana pool, the banning of LoH in competitive gameplay, when you can be cc chained for over a minute without being able to use defensive utility, we are a waste of space, and people know it. I mean bar the likes of vanguards who seems to be able to hire the best healers in the game (and who knows what other dodgy business), what other rets are competitive, I would say you'll find maybe less than half a dozen in the world, and I would also say they've done something in the background to obtain that status, so therefore clearly based on data, we aren't remotely competitive as a class spec overall.
Now arena's are one thing, and RBG large raid groups are another, my comments in relation to this is, we should be competitive in this type of gameplay, every class spec should, if not the game is broken.
the game needs a toning down of cc effects, it needs to be balanced around the fact that every class spec should be able to have a slot over any one other, if not, well then in my mind you are not servicing your clientele effectively simple.
I think dps is an issue, we are nearly in the right spot, but having our main dps on 3 min CD (better than 5min CD granted) and all the cc in the game, we are to easily cc'd with our CDs up in smaller group games. Our survivability due to so many counters is also questionable (DS easily removed for a long CD ability for example), LoH is terrible to balace around, it should only be able to be used on others as utility imao.
We have some awesome utility but other classes are too overbuffed to counter it. That is the main problem, there is nothing inherently wrong with our abilities or how they are used.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10300
Reroll or GTFO


I'm a paying customer, I don't have too, if I don't want too, as I say, in large group play we should be viable and get our monies worth.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
20970
10/30/2013 06:00 PMPosted by Baldwyn
Our survivability

You dont use tv glyph.
Edited by Majintherm on 10/30/2013 6:23 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
16050
Prot still not required for RBGs/large PvP grp.

I'm a paying customer,I say, in large group play we should be viable and get our monies worth.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10300
10/30/2013 06:12 PMPosted by Majintherm
Our survivability

You dont use tv glyph.


So you know, I constantly change and mix up Glyph of TV, Glyph of BoG, Glyph of Div Prot, Glyph of WoG, glyph of FoL.

As for you in effect trying to take the p*ss out of me for not having Glyph of TV, 10% damage reduction for 6 secs is questionable really in the overall scheme of things in PvP, you need to constantly be on a target and not cc'd, yet again bringing me back to the points I make above.
It's one of the better glyphs we have for sure, but as for "mandatory" I dunno, against melee constantly sure, but even against rogues throwing up their evasion ability, or warriors atm moving in (with 2 charge/stuns etc) and out on us to stun, I'd much prefer BoG, a warriors one weakness is being snared from all the snares in game, even they get overwhelmed, so if you play your cards right and move in and out on them as well, it can work in Ret's favour to offheal ones self, even if it is only 2 seconds snare, it can be enough to get an instant FoL, a full 3 HoPo WoG etc off on oneself without being hit.

so yeah I actually think about things, you clearly don't you just do what everyone else does, and that's the problem with this game also, dumbed down that much for the kiddies that obviously make up the majority of the players now has ruined the game for people that remotely strategise.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10300
Prot still not required for RBGs/large PvP grp.

I'm a paying customer,I say, in large group play we should be viable and get our monies worth.


Agree and so why shouldn't it be for large group play in some capacity?
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
9805
10/30/2013 12:01 AMPosted by Lobster
The scale and objectives of RBGs make group comps even more restrictive than much smaller arena teams. Melee in general need help. Given ret's broad toolkit, differentiating holy and ret is likely the best way to make ret more attractive to RBG teams.


This is, in my opinion, the biggest thorn in Ret's side. Having to share a toolkit with Holy and Prot causes the majority of our problems. When a spec has a talent/glyph/ability that's overpowered, nine times out of ten Blizzard just guts it. Some examples:

Pursuit of Justice; this talent was more powerful when MoP launched, but was nerfed due to how easily Holy could generate and store Holy Power.

Glyph of the Battle Healer; was primarily created for Ret. The primary goal was for Ret to Sacrifice some DPS for a Disc Priest (atonement) and Mist Weaver (fist-weaving) style of play. For the whole expansion, it was a situational and fun glyph for Ret. It was never over powered for us. For Prot it became extremely over powered with vengeance, and combined with the fact that they run with Insight regardless, meant they didn't have to sacrifice something like Ret did. The glyph was changed to the laughably bad version we have today.

Eternal Flame; another spell that was nerfed due to prot scaling. For Ret, the HoT from EF was reasonable and effective. For prot, with their mastery and vengeance scaling, made the HoT absurd. So, Blizzard went ahead and reverted the buff to it (effectively reducing it's effectiveness by 25%)

We almost lost our Instant cast Blinding Light because of Holy and nearly had to deal with a 30% nerf to Sacred Shield because of prot. The only reason these were reverted was due to the outrage of the Ret community. This isn't even limited to the other two specs, pretty much every "nerf" Ret has been hit with this expansion has been a blanket nerf not intended for us. The fact that a large part of our utility and defensive capabilities stem from our healing meant we took it to the face whenever Blizzard felt "Healers are too powerful in PVP." Other specs got hit with this, but not nearly as hard as we did.

I'm hoping they reveal an evolved ability/talent system at Blizzcon for the new expansion. I really like the style, layout, and feel of the current talent tree, but it needs to go back to being separated again. Having all three specs share the same tree creates massive limitations and balancing issues. Can you imagine having the tree we have now, but with all the talents specifically aimed at your own spec? It would be glorious. No more useless CCs with cast times, none of that mess. Just 18 Ret Talents on a 3x6 grid.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9625
We're by far the least favourite choice when it comes to plate dps....however it's much better now then it was before.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
10/29/2013 02:27 AMPosted by Lobster
In the case of RBGs, melee have always been at a considerable disadvantage. Ranged specs have always been more effective in open field combat and that's just how it is.

Let's start with making the tree stumps in WSG actually function as LoS. >:(

So, instead of complaining, talk about how melee in general should be more viable in competitive PVP and how it can be done, such as by altering terrain and/or by making ranged less mobile. Discuss meaningful ways Blizzard can differentiate ret from holy, preferably without creating new abilities.

I wonder how WotLK Ret would have done in RBG's. A lot of people would probably say poorly, but I'm not so sure. Another spammable magic dispel and Freedom stun-break would've been useful in the hands of a skilled Ret...

Who am I kidding, the mass majority of players probably wouldn't have given WotLK Ret a shot, and that's a problem. Ret needs something those min-maxing (cheese-minded as you say) players can look to and say hey, I want that, that can really help me win. Maybe something AoE.

The last thing PvP needs is more abilities, but everyone is sure to get a new one at next expansion's level cap. This new ability should be defensive in nature because paladin is a defensive class - Ret should do as much DPS as any other damage-dealer, but its utility shouldn't be interrupt, snare, etc, shouldn't be the standard melee kit. Also this ability needs to be somehow less-useful-in-this-context for Holy.

"What if every spec wants a new ability like this?" I'm not sure many really need one. Casters are great in RBG's, DK has its gimmick, rogue has a fine design for RBG's imo, and warrior isn't quite so far off as Ret. Enhance and Feral probably need some help.

I'm curious how melee will do in RBG's if next expansion casters have to cast and melee can be kited. Probably worse, haha. You know what I think would be cool? If tank specs were barred from RBG's and DPS specs had to run the flag. That could help Arms and Feral, assuming rogue or something isn't superior. Take resil gems out of the game while you're at it.

so yeah I actually think about things, you clearly don't you just do what everyone else does, and that's the problem with this game also, dumbed down that much for the kiddies that obviously make up the majority of the players now has ruined the game for people that remotely strategise.

Glyph of TV is pretty much mandatory. It's good to test out everything for yourself, to try to think outside the box, but you reached the wrong conclusion here. Sometimes the way everyone else does it is actually the right way to do it. Sure I'd rather use Sacred Shield than Selfless Healer, Divine Purpose than Holy Avenger, but after having tried SS and DP for myself I know switching to them would be shooting myself in the foot.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
By the way, how much better would this game be if there were no specs, just classes? Hybrids would be hybrids, but still necessary for most content because they'd be the only classes with powerful heals. Hybrids would do less damage than pures but use damage to power their heals. Paladin would be a melee hybrid, priest ranged, druid mixed I guess...

Totally off-topic and unrealistic 8+ yrs into the game, I know. Just saying. :D

edit:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10388539601
Edited by Hafleur on 10/31/2013 1:12 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
11415
/quote Kiting classes can't get away from us /quote

haha that's a lie too. kiting classes can kite us very efficiently even with burden of guilt and seal of justice on. just because you killed some that are bad at kiting doesn't mean anything. no instant gap closer is whats really hurting ret in my opinion. after we are cced or rooted/snared/silenced and they use an instant escape move... /deterrence /blink teleport. your screwed.freedom and use judgment and long arm and youll still be low hp by the time you get to them.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]