Advice Across all Specs. BC-era PLD Returning

90 Human Paladin
8805
Hello. I have read guides on Noxxic and Icyveins, but I'd like additional player input. Since returning to Wow with MoP, Paladin has undergone some great changes. Coming from BC Prot PVE / Holy PvP, I plan to eventually return to those builds.

In the meanwhile and to that end,

Protection:

1. I have read some topics on this forum suggesting ret gear. I understand how haste helps with our specializations, but are there any caps I should be aware of? The priorities on guides just say get your Hit/Expertise and then follow the priority.

Given that I've also read the Avoidance Cap is no longer a possible goal to shoot for, what's a comfortable dodge/parry rating before opting for Threat gen/extra STA for the hardest hits in SoO?

As a tie in to this, I'm preparing to run ToT's for gear, and I would like some clarification before I opt a specialization choice for personal loot.

2. I like what I'm hearing about EF and the new tier. Now, playing with prot a bit as I leveled, I stuck with damage seals but have heard now that Insight is the go to for raids.

What kind of threat issues should I expect, if any, with a Hit/Expertise cap in play if I follow the rotation?

3. For challenge modes, beyond anything I can see in videos and guides, any personal experience or POV here? I plan on running with a Disc, so any suggestions for DPS? (I'm aware the cap forces seperate gemming, no worries there)

Holy:

1. What is our niche, exactly, in PvE? While I don't plan to main holy, it will be my secondary spec, and I'm doing fairly well with Selfless Healer. I just got about 5 upgrades, but before that at a 508 iLvL, I was doing about 50-70 range HPS coming in at about 2-5, depending on comps. Of course, it's just LFR with lower amounts of damage, but still a start.

I'm finding that druids are single target beasts (pun, intended?), and that Shamans rain is flooring the AoE situations.

2. I'm quite happy with my performance and CD usage in PvP, in the limited capacity I've done so far since returning. But as a backup spec for raiding to switch to, what are some tips Holy Paladin specific that I might not already be aware of.

How has the EF vs SH situation developed as a whole? Correct me if I'm wrong (please), but I would gem/forge differently depending on which I prefer, and thus, in PVE, I couldn't swap those two so easily as others?

3. Possibly in relation to what I am currently perceiving as a lack of consistent AoE healing during periods of heavy damage, should I drop prism and stick with Lights hammer? Or should I accept a more situational/snipe role and not worry too much? Is it just an iLvL issue that will go away in time, or is the culmulative healing zones always going to prevent my HPS from reaching comparable levels?

4. Is there generally more overhealing from EF or SH builds?

Retribution:

1. Tips for Endless 30 on a Ret, basically. Since Haste stacking dwindles with the cap in proving Grounds, what trinket/talents/strategies have worked for any of you?

ALL:

Has anyone done the Silver "You're doing it wrong" Proving Ground achievement with any Paladin spec? if so, please share your success.

Closing:

I realize it is a lot of questions, and I appreciate any and all feedback from paladins of any discipline. Thank you.
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90 Tauren Paladin
5010
Welcome back.

I'm by no means, an expert, but I'll try to help out.

Haste soft cap is 40% or where you always have an ability to use basically, then stack mastery.

Don't bother with dodge/parry rating. Reforge out of it whenever you can. Haste and mastery do more to keep you alive than the 'defense' stats since they are rng based and have DR. From what I understand you shouldn't need to stack stam. SotR will be enough(combined with CDs wwhen necessary) to asorb the big hits.

As far as your loot spec, you kinda dance around with it. Mostly ret loot, but switching to prot for your 1-handers, shield, certain trinkets, and Tier 16 pieces.

Yes, Insight is the way to go. Free healing is a plus.

Only threat issues will come from dps that majorly outgear you, otherwises there shouldn't be any issues with threat.

I'm sorry, but I've never done Challenge modes, so I have no info for you there.

As far as Prism against LH, I prefer prism for the quicker cd, it's a good emergency instant heal. There are some mechanics that cause you to move constantly with the raid taking damage, and it's helpful in those situations. LH may be more effective in a raid stack situation, I haven't really tested it, but as you noted Shaman's rain with outdo it.
Our AoE healing is rather limited in LFR with everyone competing for top hps, but 2 Holy Radiance and a holy shock is useful, and it leaves you with 3 HP.

Sorry, I couldn't answer all of your questions, and I hope what I said was helpful. Once again, Welcome back.
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90 Human Paladin
8805
Thank you Rakfnan for the feedback.

Interesting. So to clarify, I shouldn't go for any dodge/parry, at all, if I can avoid it?

That's very different, but much easier than the awful Spellpower+defensive we needed in BC.

Is this Blizzard's intention? It seems to kind of devalue Prot gear as a whole, or is that specifically for Paladins, while other tanks still require defensive stats more than us?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10905
Warriors gear for parry/dodge to fuel reposte.

DKs may do the same, or stick with mastery for a smoother tanking experience albeit lower DPS.

Judging from Blizzard's past actions, they did not anticipate Haste stacking for Paladins. They've only recently make some hamfisted changes to finally allow Prot to get haste gear through personal loot system.

I haven't bothered with proving grounds after gold, but I suspect while reforging/regearing would help, they are probably not required for endless 30.
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90 Human Paladin
10815
Haste and mastery is what you're looking for in prot gear, namely because of Sanctity of Battle, (haste reduces cd for judgement, CS and HoW), which leads to quicker holy power generation which provides longer uptime of Shield of Righteousness, (the 3 sec physical damage reduction which does stack btw). They recently tried to make dodge and parry not feel so worthless, and tied Grand Crusader to them.

And it seems Blizzard is liking the active mitigation model, so it's looking to be the way of things for us. (evident as recently as the 10/21 hotfix - Protection Paladins are now eligible to receive plate armor with Haste via person loot (Raid Finder and Flexible difficulty) and bonus rolls (all difficulty modes) from Siege of Orgrimmar and Ordos).

(this is just an alt I have fun with via oqueue flexes btw)

As for holy, the cookie cutter specs weren't working for me...and am now basically a SH crit/mastery build reforging out of all spirit, down to 7k+ and rarely drop below 80% mana yet still always top charts or at least contention for it, (like that truely matters). Divine Purpose and HP being staple talents for me as well.

Not too helpful I know, but it seems to me that there's alot of options which way to go for hpals nowadays...just finding your niche, and fine tuning your talents to fill it.
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90 Human Paladin
9215
I'm by no means, an expert, but I'll try to help out.

Haste soft cap is 40% or where you always have an ability to use basically, then stack mastery.


This is not true for Protection. Protection Paladins go all the way to 50% and even after, Haste still has a non-zero value, it's just that with the 1 sec GCD, you start to hurt your rotation fillers and thus start losing threat/dps.

The 40% thing is a Retribution thing.

As for Prot, Dodge/Parry are basically total non-issues. Don't actively seek it out, don't even passively seek it out. If it ends up on a piece of gear that's an upgrade, sure, but don't take it from someone else who needs it and don't try to bonus roll for it.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
10/30/2013 05:10 PMPosted by Berith
The 40% thing is a Retribution thing.


Also, not a mandatory thing for Ret, just kind of a vague guideline.
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90 Human Paladin
9215
OP, why are you wearing Tier 14 when you obviously have better gear ? Just wondering, since your equipped ilvl is 478 and your max ilvl is 522...

You do know about Transmog right ?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4460
Noxxic and Icyveins


Please don't.
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90 Human Paladin
8805
10/30/2013 02:11 PMPosted by Reliable
As for holy, the cookie cutter specs weren't working for me...and am now basically a SH crit/mastery build reforging out of all spirit, down to 7k+ and rarely drop below 80% mana yet


If I'm understanding this, how do you manage your mana in heavy damage situations with little spirit? Admittedly, when things are going fine, I have no issue at all with a primarily spirit-based set of gear. But if I have to start going outside of my rotation for a FL or DR not procced, I look to a trinket or Plea sooner than later. Even with the bonus (at a high +spirit total) I can't ignore my mana.

As for Prot, Dodge/Parry are basically total non-issues. Don't actively seek it out, don't even passively seek it out. If it ends up on a piece of gear that's an upgrade, sure, but don't take it from someone else who needs it and don't try to bonus roll for it.


Well said. Along with other confirmations, this will be my rule of thumb.

OP, why are you wearing Tier 14 when you obviously have better gear ? Just wondering, since your equipped ilvl is 478 and your max ilvl is 522...

You do know about Transmog right ?


I certainly do know about transmog, and I appreciate your concern. I'm actually on my off-set at the moment, since questing Ret (and I'd like to nail down Endless30 before moving on to Prot completely). Maybe Armory pulled my data at a less-favorable time.

I have some of the best transmog sets, IMO. But I've really taken to the Red lookalike from LFR here, and plan to get my Shado-Pan helmet soon as a compliment. The Ashkandi looks the part too, I think.

Noxxic and Icyveins

Please don't.


Is there a better source of information I'm missing? I feel I do my due diligence, and check tenton and various other sites as well. This topic has provided much more constructive input than I had expected, and I'm grateful for that. But generally, I haven't found forums superior in the past.

Admittedly, when I saw Noxxic's guide to a "PvP Protection Paladin", without any real explanation citing why a tank spec deserves a spot or might be viable, I had my doubts.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8515
Icy Veins isn't a bad source of info per se.... but Noxxic is 100% garbage.

That being said, I've just started healing as holy, and I wouldn't really be comfortable running an extremely low spirit build... Personally what works is ~14k spirit, which means slightly less throughput, but a lot more sustainability. This is true that you can never ignore your mana, and I'm pretty much hitting divine plea on c/d.

For Prot/Ret Elitist jerks is pretty awesome, not sure about Holy though...
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