Holy question

90 Human Paladin
14085
So I've been looking at the two legendary meta gems given by Wrathion - Courageous Primal Diamond, and Sinister Primal Diamond. I'm having a hard time liking the Courageous because I have absolutely no mana issues, ever. Seems like I really only benefit from the int it gives. My question is if the Sinister Primal Diamond procs off of judgments or not? My rotation is judgment dependent and seems like a fantastic proc. But then again it has crit so... What are some suggestions from you guys? Should I keep my Courageous and deal with the procs, switch to the Sinister meta for the proc or go with a regular meta gem? Any input or name calling is justifiable and welcome.
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90 Tauren Paladin
Vex
10345
You can get so much more output out of the Courageous Meta Gem. A theoretical approach to efficient healing is you should aim to be at 0% mana at the end of a fight, so a solution to having to much mana is simply not casting enough spells or your guild is over healing the fight. Having something to track the clearcasting proc is nice because it lets you generate 100% free HoPo when nothing is happening in a fight or allows you to get free mana which is always good.

I believe you will get far more healing or more potential healing with the Courageous vs Sinister Meta gem. One of the major problems that hurts a Paladin's output is mana constraints rather then actual output issues.
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90 Human Paladin
14085
My issues don't lie with mana. No matter how hard I try, I can't get below 40-50%. It wouldn't be beneficial to my output to spam spells without casting judgments (which cause my spells to cost 35% less per judgment). If you notice, I only have about 8.9k spirit and would trade spirit for pretty much any other secondary stat in a heartbeat. Having the Courageous Primal Diamond proc doesn't do anything for me. As far as throughput goes, the only thing that I can see is the static Int it provides. But if judgments were to proc the Sinister Primal Diamond, I could see the 30% haste being very fruitful, depending on the proc rate. I don't know, I'm not a math guy nor do I claim to be, that's why I'm here asking (maybe someone else had a similar thought and figured it out).
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90 Human Paladin
4350
...you are right, your problem is not mana, it's your talent usage.

Emphasis on using Selfless Healer in 10 mans.
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90 Draenei Paladin
5400
...you are right, your problem is not mana, it's your talent usage.

Emphasis on using Selfless Healer in 10 mans.

OK...Question here...

Just 2 days ago I hit lvl 90, and with all the Timeless Isle token gear I've been able to immediately jump into 25 man LFRs...

Did my fair share of healing 5 man dungeons as I lvl'ed up, but now the healing has changed...

I'm not having any 'issues' per say, but I have noticed that there's 2 schools of thought concerning the use of either 'Eternal Flame', or Selfless Healer' specs...

I use no addons, no healbot, no macros, and only heal LFR...I've read 'Icy Veins', and have attempted both talents while in LFR, and found neither 1 to hold a significant advantage over the other (if anything - Selfless Healer seemed to use little to no mana where as Eternal Flame used up a fair amount of mana - again I may be doing it all wrong).

Any help would be appreciated!

EDIT - after a bit of research - seems as though Eternal Flame is the better choice for Holy Paladins where as Selfless Healer is better for Ret Paladins...Think I'll stick with Eternal Flame for now unless others here can convince me otherwise.
Edited by Ancnoc on 11/13/2013 5:40 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
12935
...you are right, your problem is not mana, it's your talent usage.

Emphasis on using Selfless Healer in 10 mans.

OK...Question here...

Just 2 days ago I hit lvl 90, and with all the Timeless Isle token gear I've been able to immediately jump into 25 man LFRs...

Did my fair share of healing 5 man dungeons as I lvl'ed up, but now the healing has changed...

I'm not having any 'issues' per say, but I have noticed that there's 2 schools of thought concerning the use of either 'Eternal Flame', or Selfless Healer' specs...

I use no addons, no healbot, no macros, and only heal LFR...I've read 'Icy Veins', and have attempted both talents while in LFR, and found neither 1 to hold a significant advantage over the other (if anything - Selfless Healer seemed to use little to no mana where as Eternal Flame used up a fair amount of mana - again I may be doing it all wrong).

Any help would be appreciated!

EDIT - after a bit of research - seems as though Eternal Flame is the better choice for Holy Paladins where as Selfless Healer is better for Ret Paladins...Think I'll stick with Eternal Flame for now unless others here can convince me otherwise.


Selfless healer normally won't eat up mana. Holy Paladins can use it just fine, it's just a vastly different way to heal. It lacks in throughput but you have so much mana that you can easily waste it if need be. Unlike EF where you normally are wasting it anyway (spamming Holy Radiance and Holy shock).

So yes, they are pretty close in terms of performance. With EF you sacrifice mana regen but get much better throughput. But with SH you retain a lot more mana but sacrifice throughput.

However healing with SH can get way bigger heals. I believe with 3 stacks the healing is increased 60% on players other than yourself. I don't know about you but I can crit for 330k with a divine light, meaning if I specced into SH I'd be critting for 528,000, roughly. It also helps in those clutch heal moments. Maybe the tank drops to 20% health, and you've been saving or have 2 stacks of SH, BAM, you're a lifesaver and didn't even have to cast Lay on Hands.

Again they both work equally well, it's mainly more situational and up to the players preference. I used SH for a week or two and loved it, but I went back to EF because... it just drew me back. SH got a little too cumbersome for me, but I'm thinking of going back anyway.
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100 Human Paladin
12935
Judgement is considered a melee spell to cast, however it deals holy damage, which is magic damage, so the gem should proc from judgement.

To the OP: The only issue lies in the fact of what talent you're using.

If you're using Eternal Flame then I doubt you'd want sinister since you're not really casting damaging spells. Not only that but the mana gain from Courageous will benefit you far more. Especially since most EF builds rely on mastery or haste, and EF is normally a decent mana hog depending on your healing style and the fight (where as most of the time regardless of the fight Selfless Healer will always see you ending with 90% mana or more than EF)

So if you're using Selfless Healer my question is this: Do you really need that extra haste? The crit would be worth it, but the gem is little more than a reforge to get that same amount of crit. If you're using judgement often then Divine Light, Holy Radiance, and Flash of Light are already able to be cast quickly. So do you really need extra haste on top of that?

Without EF haste becomes a little more trivial since haste really helps with procs from EF and casting spells to get holy power. Again this is where the mana save comes in handy. Especially with a haste build when you can get off maybe three spells when it procs (I know I've cast Holy shock, infusion of light HR, then holy prism during that time, saving me at least 40-50k mana). It doesn't seem like much, but that little gem procs a lot more than you think.

Again the only viable way I see sinister working is by using Selfless Healer, and even then compared to a caster DPS (who the gem is no doubt designed for) you're not casting harmful spells anywhere near as quick as them, which will result in lower procs, and due to the nature of Selfless Healer the proc itself is near useless.

However since a SH build doesn't need mana regen anyway.... it wouldn't exactly hurt to use sinister. >.< It's just one of cases where it's the better of the two, but it's not really that helpful.
Edited by Aleaina on 11/13/2013 7:52 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16275
So much weird and wrong information floating around here...

@Divinefaith

If you're not using your mana as SH you're not spamming your buttons hard enough. Even sitting at 9k spirit I can OOM with healing meta. Looks like you're doing normal modes so my guess is you're overhealing the crap out of everything.

Additionally, SH is awful in 10m compared to EF and if you're using EF you need a lot of mana so the healing meta wins.

If you persist in using SH, haste has the least synergy with that talent. You should be stacking mastery to the sky. Int isn't even that good in comparison to using fractured gems all over.

@Ancnoc

SH is ahead on raw throughput in 25m although EF is pretty good on a lot of fights. EF is miles ahead in 10m. If you're only doing LFR then pick the one that works for you as it hardly matters.

@Aleaina

The SH playstyle does not stack SH to 3 before you cast a spell that consumes it. The basic rotation is Judgment, Holy Radiance, Holy Shock, repeat ad infinitum, ad nauseum. You use the proc to reduce the mana cost and boost output of HR, the use the Daybreak proc on HS.

@EveryoneElse

We are not disc priests, use the healing meta.
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90 Human Paladin
14085
I appreciate everyone's feedback. I quite enjoy this spec and style of play. We're still in normal mode fights not for the lack of healing, but for the lack of interrupts in the last phase of Garrosh. Our guild two heals all bosses except Thok where we have more people spread out. My question was "does the Sinister Primal Diamond proc off of Judgments?" because that extra haste would drop my judgment and holy shock CD by a significant amount, providing quicker Holy Power gains and overall quicker casts for 10 seconds. Since I don't have mana issues, the Courageous Primal Diamond only gives me a static Int bonus.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16275
The int is a greater benefit to you than the haste proc since SH does not benefit significantly from haste. I get that you think it does but it doesn't. You're gimping yourself already by not stacking mastery. Don't make it worse by getting the wrong meta.
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90 Human Paladin
14085
The int is a greater benefit to you than the haste proc since SH does not benefit significantly from haste. I get that you think it does but it doesn't. You're gimping yourself already by not stacking mastery. Don't make it worse by getting the wrong meta.


How wouldn't SH benefit from 30% haste? And one more question. Is spell haste the same thing as haste? I've noticed that the haste on my gear drops my cool down on my holy shock and judgment, but Divine Favor doesn't. Ever since this patch I've had to completely change the way I heal since my raid comp changed. Healing with a shaman who provides big heals and overpowered totems leaves a little niche that SH fills quite nicely. As far as haste on my gear I've knocked an entire second off of my Judgment/Holy Shock cool down while not sacrificing any mastery since I reforge from spirit into that. Every minute I gain 4 extra holy power from just judgment and holy shock, not to mention all the other spells in my book being quicker. But like I said before, my healing has never been an issue, the shaman in my raid and I compliment each other nicely on every fight. I have no issues keeping 200k hps and I don't feel like I'm gimped. I might be gimped by gemming haste, but it hasn't been an issue we've come across yet.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16275
Haste isn't bad. The thing is, mastery is better. What mastery provides that haste can't and that your raid doesn't have if you're healing with a shaman is shielding that increases the effective health of the raid.

Our mastery provides an hp cushion above and beyond what our actual health pools are which allows the raid to absorb bigger hits without dipping dangerously low.

Haste benefits hots disproportionately so an EF spec will look at haste breakpoints to see if they can get extra ticks from the hot and haste loses value between those points.

SH is almost all instant cast so you don't see the benefit in that way. You do get the reduced cd from Sanctity of Battle but because of how well mastery scales you lose value from stacking haste to increase the number of HS casts you can get off in a given time period vs. the EH gain for the raid.

What you're not seeing because of where your guild is in progression is how much having that EH cushion impacts raid survivability.

Honestly, do what you want. Right now because of how long the tier has been out you're overgearing it so the EH issue is less important than it was.

If you want the perspective of a top 10m holy pally, read this: http://fullspectrumholypally.wordpress.com/
Edited by Lucydin on 11/13/2013 2:47 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
14085
Thanks for the information Lucydin. I really appreciate the input! I have noticed a significant change in how much stronger our shaman is the more he gears up. I'll give the mastery stacking a try!
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90 Draenei Paladin
5400
UPDATE...

After running a few LFR's with both Eternal Flame, and Selfless Healer...Believe it, or not - I tend to find the Selfless Healer spec, and style of healing a bit easier for me, and it's what I'm using with pretty good efficiency.

Thanks again for everyone's help!
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