Poor me, the Sad Prot Pally

90 Dwarf Paladin
5800
Saoiren should be posting and asking how to play Prot..... Not giving advice!!!!!!


Sorry to say as long as I'm paying monthly I'll pretty much post whatever I want. When you start paying me that's when I will start doing what you say.

But, You are welcome to disagree.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
5800
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fevyohqkz91ki37x/

I didn't even know this site existed. But just from a quick over view it looks like the statistic it offers are going to be someone missing leading. It has Inquisition pooled together with divine purpose. So that means it is mixing my Retribution Spec with my protection spec.

11/12/2013 02:33 AMPosted by Divinefaith
correctly gear/gem/enchant/reforge their characters


there are Plenty of sites and posts out there done by people that actually do this for a living or pretend to do it for a living that will tell you how to do that. There really is no point for me to restate what others have said.

This whole argument really rides on the idea that I was giving my twist on what I had picked up. Which I have stated over and over again. My tanking abilities are a work in progress. Which I have also already stated. However, through this I have learned something.

But I still don't see anything wrong with the macro. Does it offer the most optimal performance. More than likely not. When your in the middle of an encounter I think the macro makes it easier for me to make sure that my SoTR is up.

I still think the use of SotR should be used in Parallel to Other abilities seems how it is not on global CD. Weither or not it be macro'd.

But yea still seeing a lot of name calling , nay saying and finger point not a lot of People stepping up and giving there attack strategy.

Which is actually why I posted begin with all you get out is a lot of people telling your doing everything wrong.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14755
11/12/2013 01:56 PMPosted by Saoiren
I didn't even know this site existed.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fevyohqkz91ki37x/details/13/?s=1453&e=1761

Set specifically to Juggernaut, click on Buffs Gained. You have 11.7% uptime on SotR. You had greater uptime on Heroism (12.9%) than you did your personal active mitigation buff.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-fbsqj9shepvykiom/details/6/?s=5064&e=5403

From Rubert's (first guy I came across going backwards in the thread) most recent normal kill of Juggernaut (again, go to Buffs Gained). He had 63.7% uptime on SotR.

Saoiren, not trying to be rude, but you really are doing it wrong.
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90 Human Paladin
9215
Then why did you make so many posts claiming that your macro did so many good things?


Well I think it does.


Even after all of it as been explained. Let's see why.

The argument is being made that it doesn't is that by using in in conjunction with CS you are losing flexibility. Also, that by doing holding off on a Crusader strike you are wasting a moment that you could be generating holy power. That is my understanding of it at this point.


At least we know you're not suffering from reading comprehension problems. Let's see why you think we're wrong now.

11/12/2013 04:28 AMPosted by Saoiren
However, The game play style that people seem to use is only using SoTR before a Boss does a power attack.


No, our play style isn't that at all. It's not how the class should be played and not what anyone here said. Where did you get this ?

11/12/2013 04:28 AMPosted by Saoiren
This would make the use of SotR Much easier to manage. But, by not using SotR as soon as the debuff drops. You are nerfing yourself in other ways.


I'm guessing you don't mean "using SotR as soon as the debuff drops" because that impossible to do unless you're running enough haste to have 1 sec cooldown on Judgement or are using Holy Avenger or getting DP procs. And even then, SotR's BUFF (not debuff) is additive in duration, so why are you waiting for it to drop ? Just mash that key as fast as possible in those times you don't need to hold one back for a boss special and look at that buff timer roll into the 10s and 20s of seconds.

I'm guessing you think we're not also aiming for the highest possible uptime on SotR, which couldn't make you more wrong. We are. Flexibility and uptime are not mutually exclusive as you try to make them sound. Not even close. We don't sit on 5 HoPo for 30 seconds. We have DBM timers to help us know when to keep it back a bit and when not to.

11/12/2013 04:28 AMPosted by Saoiren
Also my game play style revolves around the Use of EF and the Use of Divine Purpose. So I would think actively trying to keep SotR up at all times as much as possible Which unless you have a perfect Haste level allowing exactly 3.0 seconds CD on Crusader Strike and a perfect global CD of 1 sec be able to accomplish a complete 100 percent uptime of the Debuff from SotR becomes impossible.


What does EF and DP have to do with this ? My "play style" also uses both those talents if you'd bothered to check my armory. I have no problem keeping a 5 BoG EF rolling close to 100% of the time while not using your macro and sometimes holding back on a SotR.

With a 3 sec CS, you cannot have 100% uptime on SotR. It lasts 3 seconds and requires 3 Holy Power. 3 sec CS means you get 2 HoPo every 6 seconds assuming you're throwing in a J in there for your 3rd. That's 50% uptime.

11/12/2013 04:28 AMPosted by Saoiren
Until you acquire a perfect haste lvl allowing 3 holypower to be generated in 3 seconds you will never have 100 percent up time. But, my understand of the game play style used by most of the posters is to only Use SotR directly before a boss does a major attack. This opens youself up to gaining dmg from other attacks.


Your failure to understand is now clear and dully noted. You do not understand what we've explained to you. You need to read back through the thread. 2 things with SotR :

- Maximum flexibility
- Maximum uptime

You should aim for both. Not one or the other. Your macro prevents both btw.

11/12/2013 04:28 AMPosted by Saoiren
So the only way to truly maximize the true effectiveness of SoTR is to consider it a separate entity out side of other attacks. But this is going to put you in a position where you are going to be pushing two buttons at once because you are going to be wanting to be pushing Both SoTR and the next attack in you Combat rotation simultaneously.


So do that. SotR is off the global cooldown for a reason. Macro'ing it to other abilities isn't it. Just hit both keys in the same global cooldown.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fevyohqkz91ki37x/details/13/?s=1453&e=1761

Set specifically to Juggernaut, click on Buffs Gained. You have 11.7% uptime on SotR. You had greater uptime on Heroism (12.9%) than you did your personal active mitigation buff.


Were you using your macro ? How can you only have 11.7% uptime on SotR unless you were hiding in a corner somewhere during that fight ? It's the biggest tank and spank there is on Flex and LFR.
Edited by Berith on 11/12/2013 3:15 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4820
11/12/2013 02:37 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
I didn't even know this site existed.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fevyohqkz91ki37x/details/13/?s=1453&e=1761

Set specifically to Juggernaut, click on Buffs Gained. You have 11.7% uptime on SotR. You had greater uptime on Heroism (12.9%) than you did your personal active mitigation buff.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-fbsqj9shepvykiom/details/6/?s=5064&e=5403

From Rubert's (first guy I came across going backwards in the thread) most recent normal kill of Juggernaut (again, go to Buffs Gained). He had 63.7% uptime on SotR.

Saoiren, not trying to be rude, but you really are doing it wrong.


just so bad.

it's not rude if it's true.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
5800
Set specifically to Juggernaut


Does it have any other fights or just that fight listed. I honestly didn't even know about this site and I don't remember the last time I tanked Juggernaut. I think the last time I tank Juggernaut I was on Bomb Control. Which means I wasn't even focusing boss. On flex raiding My guild using me as a Third tank to do bomb control NOT TANK THE BOSS and NOT mitigate Damage. So, the statistics are still gonna be jacked. Could you look up my up time last night on Lei Shen Normal ToT run I was an off tank. Our guilds main tank is a DK who has been playing the game for years. But you might get a little bit different reading on that fight over Juggernaut. Like I said I'm on Bomb control On juggernaut because I can use Hand of protection, Divine Protection ( with glyph ) , sacred Shield , and Divine shield. So, I mean on Juggernaut when my only function is to DPS boss and jump on Bombs isn't really a fair vantage point of my tanking ability. I would suggest looking at the stats for Lei Shen Normal done last night. If the stats are posted... Then tell me I suck... NOT WHEN IM ON BOMB DETAIL.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14755
11/12/2013 03:51 PMPosted by Saoiren
Could you look up my up time last night on Lei Shen Normal ToT run I was an off tank.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/pfwxdudv4cgq1gdh/details/5/?s=2556&e=2910

20.3% SotR uptime.

For comparison:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-gtpp7ibmjh6asans/details/7/?s=7562&e=8036

Worst ranked Prot Pally on Lei Shen 10n, Naytiri: 27.1% SotR uptime.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uuco59rwfxtanqmt/details/1/?s=13361&e=13760

Ranked 100 Prot Pally on Lei Shen 10n, Iickit: 39.9% SotR uptime.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-e4u2x6c843yctxis/details/7/?s=15483&e=15942

Top ranked Prot Pally on Lei Shen 10n, Somisareg: 67.2% SotR uptime.

Also, just a point of curiosity, for Jugg, why aren't the actual tanks handling bombs? Why go tank to do bombs instead of Ret, which would probably be more useful since you'd do more damage?
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90 Human Paladin
9215
Also, just a point of curiosity, for Jugg, why aren't the actual tanks handling bombs? Why go tank to do bombs instead of Ret, which would probably be more useful since you'd do more damage?


His guild has it macro'ed so he has to... *chuckle*. Sorry 3 pages of the high road is more than I can bear.
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90 Human Paladin
8590
I would suggest looking at the stats for Lei Shen Normal done last night. If the stats are posted... Then tell me I suck... NOT WHEN IM ON BOMB DETAIL.


No one wants to tell you your bad, honestly. We are trying to help in our own ways. You had 20.3% Sotr and 35.6% EF uptimes. Those numbers are really bad, but can be picked up greatly.

I do 25m normal and didnt get bomb duty, but still got 6 bombs w/o trying. You did 10 bombs on that raid. I know the damage intake is different, but you did look at the dps/healing difference?
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90 Human Paladin
8590
Also, just a point of curiosity, for Jugg, why aren't the actual tanks handling bombs? Why go tank to do bombs instead of Ret, which would probably be more useful since you'd do more damage?


damn good point! Your ret is pretty good and you can spec for the bombs.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
5800
That's the strategy they use. It works. Not entirely sure what there thinking is on that fight. But we one shot it every week with no wipes. So, we are just not ranked number one. But as a Protection spec I take less dmg if I am on forbearance. I don't know the stat change that makes this possible. But, I do know that if I am in Ret spec and I have no shield available and a bomb blows up in my face I'm if I am in tank Spec I only go to about 1/3 hp. It might just be I have more stamina in tank spec then Ret spec.

Why they use a three tank strategy On Juggernaut I don't know.

We have done it in the past where we just have people grab them who are capable of mitigating dmg along with the off tank. It works as well. The last few weeks we have been going with a three tank strategy.

His guild has it macro'ed so he has to


My guild really hasn't helped me much with tanking. A few people in the guild squared me away on my ret spec. But aside from a few complaints the first couple weeks I started tanking No one in the guild complains about my tanking and despite the fact I'm not ranking well I have actually done better than other Protection Paladins we have had come in from outside the guild. I follow orders and respond to command. Which really has nothing to do with my Combat rotation. When grabbing people from outside the guild to do off tanking you get a lot of people that either don't listen or don't care. But as for my guild actually giving me lessons on tanking styles it really hasn't happened. In fact most of what I do I have come up with on my own. I have read some articles. But for the most part I have pieced it all together on my own. I even play tank with out a combat rotation add on. Which might actually improve my tanking. I just want to see what I can accomplish without it.

But for the most part I am a casual player. I didn't even know there was a Ranking website for Raiding. Learn something new everyday
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4820
11/12/2013 04:09 PMPosted by Berith
Also, just a point of curiosity, for Jugg, why aren't the actual tanks handling bombs? Why go tank to do bombs instead of Ret, which would probably be more useful since you'd do more damage?


His guild has it macro'ed so he has to... *chuckle*. Sorry 3 pages of the high road is more than I can bear.


i'm on your realm. killing your ordos.

licking you while you're afk.

dirty alliance.
Edited by Bobbydigital on 11/12/2013 4:30 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9215
11/12/2013 04:24 PMPosted by Saoiren
But as for my guild actually giving me lessons on tanking styles it really hasn't happened.


Nor should it. Why do you expect them to ?

Anyway, if you listen to them as well as you listened here (ie, not at all), then I wouldn't help you with tanking either. You realise you've been wrong all this time, and we've been trying to help you this whole time, explaining things and dispelling misconceptions you have and all you've been doing is going defensive and throwing mud in our face, insulting us on the way there (to the point a moderator had to delete one of your posts and I guess give you a quick forum vacation).

Sit down, read back through the thread and use all the cool information we've posted so that you can learn instead of trying to prove us wrong on something you are not tooled to do obviously.


i'm on your realm. killing your ordos.

licking you while you're afk.

dirty alliance.


Damn it, missed you because of replying on forums :\
Edited by Berith on 11/12/2013 4:31 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
10680
OK, so I was reading through this thread. I am attempting to start tanking, and would like some feedback if possible please.

I see that some of you state saving up a SotR for a heavy hit. So, assuming I time it a bit wrong, is it still better to let a 4 stack of the buff you get for EF to fall off so I can be sure to have the 3 sec mitigation from it?

I am attempting to understand all that is being said here, but lots of drama, so it makes it a wee bit difficult lol. How exactly are you keeping the 3 sec mitigation buff up so much? I just don't get how to keep it up for 60% of the fight, especially when it require 3 HoPo, and only lasts for 3 seconds each time you hit SotR.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18780
It stacks, and you use divine purpose to get free hp abilities when it procs, with that you can chain sort to last a longer time then normaly. While this is going on you are still generating hp while sort is still up. If you get lucky with a proc streak you can have the sort buff last for 20+ seconds
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90 Human Paladin
9215
I see that some of you state saving up a SotR for a heavy hit. So, assuming I time it a bit wrong, is it still better to let a 4 stack of the buff you get for EF to fall off so I can be sure to have the 3 sec mitigation from it?


Bastion of Glory should never fall off. You never have to hold SotR that long, if you do, you're only hurting your uptime. Stack up to 5 HoPos and just watch your DBM timers. At most, you should be holding back SotR for about ~2-3 seconds when a 5 hopo lands and a timer is getting close.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
5800
11/12/2013 04:18 PMPosted by Rubert
I do 25m normal and didnt get bomb duty, but still got 6 bombs w/o trying. You did 10 bombs on that raid.


I can usually only grab 2 per cycle. by time I jump on the bomb and the bomb blows up and then move to another bomb it puts you in a position where right before you get to the 3rd bomb it blows up right before you get to it. So, the solution that we do is having someone else grab the 3rd bomb. The fact that I only picked up 10 bombs more than likely means we had 5 cycles of bombs drop. Usually 3 bombs drop at a time. I'm not an expert on the fight so I might be wrong on these numbers I'm going off of memory. But in order to get all 3 bombs I have to be superman at bomb pick up. As I play on a sub par computer this is more than likely not going to happen. Unless some incredibly kind soul is willing to buy me a new PC set up. I don't have the best job and some days don't have a job at all. By trade I do CNC work. The problem with this is in my town it means Low pay !@#$ty benefits and for the most part the companies that do CNC will lay people off for months on end. At the moment I am in downtime and it doesn't seem to be pick up very fast. So, until money starts coming in my direction there isn't much I can do about my PC performance so I'm not going to be a superman at bomb pick. Unless someone with money is willing to Be a really really really nice guy and send me about 2 grand to get a beast machine OR I could build one and you would only have to send me 1 grand. Chances on this are slim. But if you really want to see me excel and perform money will be required.
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100 Tauren Druid
16925
This stuff is starting to melt my brain.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4820
11/13/2013 01:36 AMPosted by Saoiren
I do 25m normal and didnt get bomb duty, but still got 6 bombs w/o trying. You did 10 bombs on that raid.


I can usually only grab 2 per cycle. by time I jump on the bomb and the bomb blows up and then move to another bomb it puts you in a position where right before you get to the 3rd bomb it blows up right before you get to it. So, the solution that we do is having someone else grab the 3rd bomb. The fact that I only picked up 10 bombs more than likely means we had 5 cycles of bombs drop. Usually 3 bombs drop at a time. I'm not an expert on the fight so I might be wrong on these numbers I'm going off of memory. But in order to get all 3 bombs I have to be superman at bomb pick up. As I play on a sub par computer this is more than likely not going to happen. Unless some incredibly kind soul is willing to buy me a new PC set up. I don't have the best job and some days don't have a job at all. By trade I do CNC work. The problem with this is in my town it means Low pay !@#$ty benefits and for the most part the companies that do CNC will lay people off for months on end. At the moment I am in downtime and it doesn't seem to be pick up very fast. So, until money starts coming in my direction there isn't much I can do about my PC performance so I'm not going to be a superman at bomb pick. Unless someone with money is willing to Be a really really really nice guy and send me about 2 grand to get a beast machine OR I could build one and you would only have to send me 1 grand. Chances on this are slim. But if you really want to see me excel and perform money will be required.


so what the what the what for prosperity.
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90 Pandaren Monk
14175
This stuff is starting to melt my brain.


You and me both bud.
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