WoD; Play Holy in Ret gear.

90 Human Paladin
12245
First haste and mastery are the two best stats for both ret and prot... avoidance is useless and no longer exists in 6.0. This means the only difference between ret and prot gear will be weapons/trinkets in 6.0 (possible the tertiary stats).


Dodge and parry "Avoidance" is gone yes, but did you not watch Blizzcon?

Avoidance and Armour are the tanking stats on WoD
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90 Dwarf Paladin
9565
Repudent

I'm currently NOT on top of my ret game but to my understanding after one gets Thok trinket rets best is haste/crit..

10man normal I currently have a haste/crit build for prot . Sooo umm ........
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90 Troll Shaman
6035
Simple solution: Make the new tertiary stats such as avoidance, lifesteal, cleave etc. tied to the few pieces that are spec specific (cloak, rings, neck, trinks, weapons).

Problem. Solved.
You can all go home now.


Problem not solved, you don't even Paladin. Leave.


I do in fact have a Paladin, though this is my main. Also, and I understand you may have missed this seeing as it's only been around since launch, Shamans are hybrid classes that can swap roles the same way Paladins can.

I'll give you a moment to let that sink in.

Good? Okay then. My suggestion is a possible solution to the non-existent problem you keep incessantly spewing on about. We've been given only a small snapshot of what may or may not come, and you're already claiming the sky is falling, without even listening to opposing views. You're as bad as the "ZOMG BLIZZ Y U KILL 10M HEROIC GUILD /life QQ" posts, and somehow even worse than the "I want Panda DKs!" crowd.
Edited by Ujili on 11/11/2013 2:20 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
6035
It's way too early to get angry about these gear changes. You can't take MoP's stat priorities and apply them to a brand new expansion -- you don't even know how haste/crit/mastery will scale with your spec.

All you know for sure is hit/expertise are gone, armor is the new tanking stat, and primary stats on gear will change depending on your current spec.

We won't know the full context of this information for a while yet.


This guy gets it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11850


Problem not solved, you don't even Paladin. Leave.


I do in fact have a Paladin, though this is my main. Also, and I understand you may have missed this seeing as it's only been around since launch, Shamans are hybrid classes that can swap roles the same way Paladins can.

I'll give you a moment to let that sink in.

Good? Okay then. My suggestion is a possible solution to the non-existent problem you keep incessantly spewing on about. We've been given only a small snapshot of what may or may not come, and you're already claiming the sky is falling, without even listening to opposing views. You're as bad as the "ZOMG BLIZZ Y U KILL 10M HEROIC GUILD /life QQ" posts, and somehow even worse than the "I want Panda DKs!" crowd.


No one is saying the sky is falling. It is also never too early to have criticism of new systems. I think after just a few moments of reflection on how this might work you can see how it will cause loot drama. If you tie it into the way G Street hinted at how items will be in raids it could get very ugly.

G Street has said that they do not like how items have given base stats in raids. They want to make it more "exciting". Here is how they are going to do it. You know how timeless gear tokens are now, you open it and you get a random piece of gear, that is how he wants to do the new loot system.

Here is a example. Boss 1, week 1, drops gloves, Crit/haste. Boss 1, week 2, drops gloves, all crit. Boss 1, week 3, drops gloves, all haste. They are all the same gloves, just random stat distribution. Not a good thing in my opinion.

I know a few raid leaders that already are looking at this system with a wary eye. If the loot system is any way near as random as what we see in timeless tokens it could cause major issues. I mean if you look at it, almost any piece of gear has the potential to be a upgrade. If your last man standing for loot and you get the crap gloves just because everyone else has better, when the time comes, and say the haste / mastery item drops now all of a sudden you have your two holy paladins, your ret and your tank all wanting it, and who knows your dk tank, maybe even the warrior.

What happens now is you look at the loot table and you know where your drops are. I wont roll on the crit ring and bracers, my warrior buddy get first shot at that, just like he wont go for my haste mastery bracers till i get them first. People will be much more inclined to role on anything when loot is random.

I understand it early in the development, and it might not make it to live. But what need to happen is players need to criticize systems if you see potential flaws. it how we get a better game.
Edited by Woa on 11/11/2013 3:20 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
6035
11/11/2013 03:17 PMPosted by Woa
You know how timeless gear tokens are now, you open it and you get a random piece of gear, that is how he wants to do the new loot system.


Can you link me anything that says this is the system that they are going with? They have mentioned what they are getting rid of, and what they want to include. But nothing about randomness has been stated anywhere that I have seen. It's quite likely that items will have set secondaries and armor types, and only the primary will change. Maybe tertiary will be random, BUT WE DON'T KNOW YET.

I understand it early in the development, and it might not make it to live. But what need to happen is players need to criticize systems if you see potential flaws. it how we get a better game.


We've yet to see a system at all yet. This is like a Physicist telling an Engineer that his "crazy, unbalanced two-wheel contraption won't work" without ever seeing the blueprints; until you see the bike, you can't fairly criticize it.

Besides, change is good. Embrace something new and exciting, or find a different game.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11850
Listen to "The Instance" podcast. G street is on there elaborating on it.

Sub since vanilla, i am used to change. The whole "find a new game" i find to be a rude, and uncreative remark.
Edited by Woa on 11/11/2013 5:55 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
6035
Listen to "The Instance" podcast. G street is on there elaborating on it.


I'll give that a listen when I get a chance, but I can't find it anywhere else as of yet; I think we should wait a bit to freak out just yet.

11/11/2013 05:53 PMPosted by Woa
Sub since vanilla, i am used to change.


Then embrace the change! Russian Roulette gear drops could be fun.

The whole "find a new game" i find to be a rude, and uncreative remark.


My apologies then; you must not peruse the Shaman forums that often. That is how we say "Good Day, Sir."
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90 Human Paladin
12245
You're as bad as the "ZOMG BLIZZ Y U KILL 10M HEROIC GUILD /life QQ" posts


In fact I am very happy 10m raiding is dead, finally!
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90 Draenei Shaman
14825
Also...

Shamans are hybrid classes that can swap roles the same way Paladins can.


I am quite familiar with many, many classes.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16515
So question, what are the new secondary stats?

Haste Mastery, Crit? Any others?
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90 Human Paladin
16240
11/10/2013 09:48 PMPosted by Ujili
Loot Drama. Holy, Prot and Ret all competing for every piece of gear. I am not looking forward to it. I can see issues where you have a fully geared bis Holy Paladin going DPS over a dedicated DPS that does not have all the items yet, simply because his gear would be BIS for all 3 specs. Unless i am way off base on my understanding of what they want to implement, this is gonna cause nothin but drama.


Loot drama is almost entirely based on how your raid/group handles giving out loot. This actually removes the "well crap, no one in our group uses caster leather" type situations, as long as you have at least one of each of the four armor types. Furthermore, since everything through heroic (current normal) is Flex, I won't be surprised if everything short of Mythic gives individual loot anyways.


This. My 10N group includes a Protection Paladin, an Arms Warrior, and myself primarily running as Retribution (I go to Protection for Dark Shamans and Nazgrim). It's a running joke in our raid group that if a piece of plate drops, it can't be assigned by the loot master until each of us in turn has argued for one of the other two getting it first.

Loot drama is only a thing if your raid makes it a thing.

First haste and mastery are the two best stats for both ret and prot... avoidance is useless and no longer exists in 6.0. This means the only difference between ret and prot gear will be weapons/trinkets in 6.0 (possible the tertiary stats).


This has been essentially true since MoP hit. My raid's having cruddy luck with plate drops in general in SoO, but I came out of ToT only having to swap in seven pieces of gear to go from my Ret set to my Prot set, and two of those were a weapon and shield. It was very convenient and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that something similar is the intended model for the game ongoing and across most if not all specs.
Edited by Camaeris on 11/12/2013 12:37 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9760
I think alot of people are over reacting in this thread. You have to consider the entire picture moving forward. Applying Stat weights that are current now grossly skews the picture for what Blizzard is intending and how all this will probably work out.

It isn't unreasonable for the Primary and Secondary Stats to be changed quite a bit. I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see Intellect disappear from Plate as an example, with Spirit being bumped up to fill its role. In fact, Blizzard has hinted they want Spirit to be more vital for healers... And when you couple that with limited Mana Pools (devaluing Int. already) it seems to be the plausible direction in WoD.

When you consider all that, and apply changes like that to your vision of the new loot model it works a whole lot better. I think for Paladins, Primary Stats will look like this: Stamina, Armor, Strength, Spirit. With a multiplier being toggled for each in its respective Spec. So a Prot Paladin would see 2x Stam, 2x Armor, 1.3x Strength and .2 Spirit, and Holy might see: 1x Stam, .7x Armor, .2x Strength, and 2x Spirit.

For Secondary stats, I think you're gonna still see: Mastery, Crit, Haste. The key difference being moving forward, I don't think you're going to see a runaway stat for one spec vs. another. I'd imagine that Secondary stats will have their effect reduced greatly. So while Haste is the go to Prot stat now, don't forget Blizzard has already stated they want Armor to be a more functional part of the equation. In the future, I wouldn't be surprised to see SoTR up-time affected by Armor more than Haste. (or something along those lines).

Also, I think people need to remember, that just like in the case of Paladins other Plate wearers will also see such changes. So that Crit Warrior will be realigned as well -- making this even more trivial in terms of class to class gear QQ.

If anything, the transition between specs will probably feel more like Elemental Shaman to Resto Shaman. It's fairly easy to hop between specs with minimal changes to gear, thanks to Spirit converting to Hit and such.

And when Gems change to be less [+320 Mastery] into something like: [+3% to all Secondary Stats] or [5% chance to cleave] this whole worrying will seem pretty ridiculous.
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