The good side of Mythic 20man

90 Troll Druid
20935
The thing I find most humorous about this forced raid size is that Blizzard themselves, since Cata, has talked about "how hard 25-mans are to run". They've acknowledged that 25's take a lot of management effort, are a nightmare to recruit for, and annoying because of raid logistics. In response to all these observations, they've repeatedly buffed the amount of loot 25's receive, and now have buffed the quality of loot as well, giving 25's a higher chance at TF/WF drops. They keep adding incentives, but the community as a whole doesn't seem all that interested in them, this is pretty telling.

So if they themselves have stated the logistics issues in running large raids, why in the hell are they flinging the happy 10m heroic guilds face first into those issues? I was previously an officer of a 25m heroic/hardmode guild. I was promoted up in mid-BC, and stuck with them through late Wrath. I know the issues 25's have, and they are not fun.

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Unless a large guild is already established and chugs through heroic content at an above-average pace, they are going to have a hard time recruiting and retaining members long-term. My old 25m guild was in a constant state of recruitment. There were many weeks where we had to ~20man content because some clique bailed on us and we couldn't magically get 5+ people before the next raid. Yeah, flex "heroic" mode will work, but if you are forced to run easier content for a few weeks due to recruitment/attendance issues, generally other heroic raiders start dropping like flies because "this guild is dying, I need to go to one that isn't", which sets off a chain reaction of /gquits sometimes.
We basically had to rebuild the guild several times over the years due to issues like these. And we weren't the only ones, I saw lots of other 25's on our server and servers my friends were on that experienced the same problems. It seemed that 25's in Wrath popped up and disappeared frequently.

It's stressful. It's highly stressful to recruit. It's stressful to keep your raiders happy enough that they stick around. It's stressful dealing with raiders who you dislike rather strongly, but you're forced to bring them because you have no other applicants. It's stressful to raid; the amount of cat-herding involved is laughable at some points because it's so outrageous. It. Is. Not. Fun. (For me. I understand that many of you enjoy it immensely, and that's 100% fine. But you should thank your guild management daily, because it really is a nightmare. And count yourself lucky that you don't have to deal with it).

The above is why I, and many many others, chose to downsize to 10m. We are no longer insanely stressed out, and we enjoy our raiders and trust them, because we are all so close. I never had a bond with my whole raid like I do in 10's.

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It's clear to me that Blizzard thinks there will be a massive influx of new (and old) players due to this instant 90 stuff. Yes, this is good for the game. It's great for people returning to the game. But you cannot deny the fact that a lot of those future players will be casuals who are not interested in heroic content. They will want to raid, sure, but they still have three other modes to satisfy that itch. Why bother wiping repeatedly on some super-hard boss for better loot when they could just run a flex "heroic"?

I think that Blizzard is *too* optimistic of people returning/starting up in the coming expansion. If we had an influx of another 5 million players like Wrath at it's peak, then I might actually agree with them. But the game is old. Large scale raiding is becoming a thing of the past because it's just a royal pain to upkeep. Sooooo... you're solution is to FORCE large scale raiding if you want to kill a boss on heroic? You guys know for a fact it wouldn't work on it's own, so you're forcing us to do it so it artificially works.

I foresee a lot of turnover and burnout in the future.

Also, Lore, I have full faith you guys could make 15m modes work. Many of the heroic 10 raiders seem to agree that 15 is an acceptable size. It's got that small-group feel but also a bit of "larger" feel as well. If you guys announced 15m Mythics, I would probably be jumping up and down cheering. 20 is just too large for me :P
You have to consider that most 25m guilds will lose around 5-7 people at the start of expansions anyway, so they won't have to "drop" raiders. Whereas most 10m guilds lose 1-3 raiders every expansion... most of us will have to recruit ~15-16 people to keep a solid bench. That is insane.
Edited by Tree on 11/12/2013 8:05 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9435
but that defeats the purpose in my opinion. If you are doing the "mythic" version then you expect it to be the same difficulty, not say oh the 10man version is easier so its not really "mythic" and those players will get hated on for even saying they did mythic if it isn't on 20man.

For all we know, the heroic raids in WoD may be more like the heroics today, and just mythic a step up from that, considering all the class abilities and what not they want to introduce to it, and would overall be no different to the normal heroic guilds that don't progress too fast.

When people want to do challenging content, there doing it for exactly that, to be a challenge. They don't want a watered down version, cause that's exactly what it would be if they added a 10man version, just like what we face right now with heroics.

Sacrifices will need to be made and that's perfectly acceptable. It's like in real life, say you want to earn more money but you can't do that where you work now, maybe you have to travel a little more or move elsewhere to be able to achieve that. It would be an convenience at first, but in the long run you enjoy it a lot more.
90 Pandaren Priest
16835


Then make it for 20m and then modify the fight for 10m. Then outright say "10m Mythic versions will be easier". They can at any time make amazingly epic 20m content they just have to realize and admit they can't balance the two and make them lightly different. It honestly feels like they are telling the 25m community it's the 10m's fault your encounters aren't epic enough.


Then you are not getting the experience that the designers want to create. So then you end up crippling their great work out of some personal convenience.


You can already choose to do that by choosing LFR to do the content, or choosing flex to do the content or choosing Normal to do the content. The point is it's a choice and they are removing the choice that many raiders have chosen a long time ago. Many raiders including myself enjoy challenging 10m content over 20m+ content and they are removing it to improve 20m content then blaming 10m content.
Edited by Trinko on 11/12/2013 8:06 PM PST
90 Troll Priest
15175
Would make a bit more sense if OP wasn't notorious for going out of his way to throw a hissy fit about 10mans for years.
90 Human Death Knight
4860
I think the worst part is even if we want to switch to 20m there is effectively not much we can do till the expansion. Giving this notice way in advance doesn't help because we can't recruit anyone till the expansion launches ... unless you want to rotate 20 people within a 10m or somehow make 2 10man's which is very difficulty considering you need 4 tanks 6 healers but for 20m you only need 5 healers and 2 tanks.


Nothing to do? My guild and two others are in talks of creating one big guild for mythic right now. We are taking all the necessary steps to make this transition smooth and to be ready once 6.0 hits. I suggest you do the same. Start recruiting. Once you have 14+ run flex so you can get a feel on these new people. The longer you wait to act the harder it will be.
90 Pandaren Priest
NI
12980
Over 4 years ago you guys introduce heroic (threw hardmodes at the time) 10m content, and I and many have enjoyed it immensely. With WoD you will be removing Challenging 10m content for no good reason other then you want to improve 20m raiding which, in fairness, makes no sense whatsoever. You have done everything you can to make more content more accessible threw LFR/Flex and now making normal flexible which is great but removing content is NEVER a good idea. There is a lot of people who enjoy challenging 10m content and have been doing it for 4 years now, removing it is bad. I for one have done both 25m and 10m, I did not like 25m at all and choose to do 10m which was awesome because we had a choice between doing 25m heroic or 10m heroic. Now that choice is being removed and we are being told to #dealwithit.

So why do I feel your reasoning behind removing 10m Mythic to improve 20m Mythic doesn't make any sense? Because you can at any time make 20m Mythic that complex "epic" while still creating content for 10m Mythic. Look at Naxx 10/25, those fights were changed to allow smaller groups the ability to do the fight, sure the fight is easier in 10m but who cares the challenging 10m content is still there. I think the ENTIRE 10m Heroic community would be totally fine if the fight was changed slightly and even made "easier" so 10m can still do the content without being forced to raid 20m to be challenged.

Instructor Raz had pillars to MC, the spider chick you had to kill the guys beside her to remove the buff etc. Ya those fights were technically easier in 10m but you can make it so 10m achievement's are seperate we don't care, give 100% warforged to 20m and 1% warforged to 10m because their content is harder. Say that 10m Mythic will be easier then 25 Mythic and avoid the silly 10v20 debate that h10m raiders could care less about but don't remove content that has existed and players have played for almost 5 years now.

Removing challenging 10m content after 4 years and 3 expansions is one of the worst choices you have ever made. Seperate 10m Mythic and 20m Mythic, say they are different and 10 will be easier and be done with, if it can't be balanced so be it but telling us you want one to be better so were removing the other is a cop out.


Whos to say that the new heroic mode wont be just as hard as the now heroic content? Mythic Content might just be that one step above that hardly any guilds will be reaching until much much later and even then. We have no idea what to expect out of these raids and what their difficulty will be. How many guilds have killed H Lei Shen or even will kill H Garrosh this tier? those raiders wont even get to see the Mythic content if there ever was one for those tier.
By adding another tier past Heroic how does that affect the Challenging 10m part of raiding? you can still raid up to heroic in 10 man if you so choose to.
90 Draenei Paladin
12790
Know that if blizz goes through with this, that I can't effectively do heroic raids with the guild that I'm with now. I will have to leave the atmosphere that I enjoy there for a larger mythic raiding guild. This dissapoints me greatly. :( So much for raiding with friends, at the size you want.
90 Draenei Warrior
13225
We want to be able to use those sorts of mechanics again. Those of you who have been with us for a while might remember things like Mage tanks on High King Maulgar, or Priests using Mind Control on Instructor Razuvious. We want it to be okay when, say, the Paladin can use Hand of Protection to clear a dangerous debuff, because we can reasonably assume that most guilds will have at least one Paladin in their raid. We like it when someone gets to feel awesome and have a special task on a fight because of class abilities that otherwise wouldn't get much use.


How would High King Magular work on one of the Flex modes? You would need to remove all the class specific stuff for Flex. Then what type of fight would you have? It would be a boring loot pinata imo.

You want to improve the mechanics of hardmodes and that's great. What are you going to do to improve the mechanics of the other raid types? Because everything you've written so far implies that you have no intention to do so.
90 Human Death Knight
4860
Whos to say that the new heroic mode wont be just as hard as the now heroic content? Mythic Content might just be that one step above that hardly any guilds will be reaching until much much later and even then. We have no idea what to expect out of these raids and what their difficulty will be. How many guilds have killed H Lei Shen or even will kill H Garrosh this tier? those raiders wont even get to see the Mythic content if there ever was one for those tier.
By adding another tier past Heroic how does that affect the Challenging 10m part of raiding? you can still raid up to heroic in 10 man if you so choose to.

#186
44 seconds ago
Like


Yeah, GC already stated that 10m heroic now will be more like 10m heroic in 6.0
90 Orc Death Knight
16040
Lore this isn't TBC and us going to WotLK where we had growing subs finally hitting 12million. We are now 7.6million subs and well look at your point number 2 and ever declining sub base make it easier for us to fine more players?

You of all people should know what it is like to run both 10 / 25 and also the entire recruiting process. You use to do it in Months Behind or maybe still do not sure.

All of this for Blizzard to make raid fights eaiser for themselves and as Ian said they can now put in something that require class specific things where they couldn't do it before because of 10man? that's it!

So it's screw your 10man guild for us to have a fight where you have 1 extra boss ability, not really sounding revolutionary. This smell of Cost Cuttings and Save $$


That said, I think there are several key factors worth bringing up that will help make the transition less frightening overall. For example:

1) This change is coming with an expansion. Historically, an expansion release has always been a volatile time for guild rosters – and a great time for recruitment. When everyone’s gear is suddenly equalized, the pool of potential recruits swells dramatically. It's also a time in which a lot of former players, friends, and guildmates return to the game. Sure, maybe not all of the above will be of the caliber you’re looking for as a Mythic-minded raiding guild, but you only need 10.

2) On a similar note, we’re continuing to roll out the Connected Realms feature. As more realms are connected, the potential recruitment pool on those realms will grow.

90 Orc Shaman
17685

As I mentioned before, this was not a decision we came to lightly. It's definitely going to be a very scary transition for a lot of people. We knew that when we made the decision. We just also feel quite strongly that, when the dust settles, we'll be able to provide a better raiding experience for everyone.


And what are you guys going to do if enough people don't participate in this new raid size? Go back to the current setup? Try some other gimmick that no one likes? I personally feel that you guys could still make Mythic 10-20 using the scaling flex tech but just choose not to just because the devs are being stubborn.
90 Draenei Priest
17305
11/12/2013 07:17 PMPosted by Lore
I'd also call into question the statement of "It's easier to drop people than it is to recruit them."


I think that you are vastly underestimating the difficulty involved in recruiting players. It's not merely a matter of finding available bodies, you need to build the relationships that you yourself speak of, and hope they have the means of maintaining the same schedule as 19 other people. I know from experience how difficult it is to fill two spots, let alone doubling your raid size and completely changing the dynamic of your group.

And while I understand your point about the difficulty of designing encounters when a raid group may lack a particular class, it also allows for creative problem solving when approaching a fight, as opposed to "class x use ability y to counter attack z = we win".

Additionally, I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself, but I dislike the chaos of larger groups. I like pushing my capabilities to their limit and feeling like my contribution to a raid matters. I genuinely don't understand how creating such a high barrier to access the highest level of raiding can ultimately benefit the health of the game.
90 Human Death Knight
4860
And what are you guys going to do if enough people don't participate in this new raid size? Go back to the current setup? Try some other gimmick that no one likes? I personally feel that you guys could still make Mythic 10-20 using the scaling flex tech but just choose not to just because the devs are being stubborn.


I disagree, I believe that Mythic 20 is a step forward in raiding. That's just my opinion though. =)
90 Gnome Death Knight
12080
Missing from this thread is the vocal presence of the 40-man raid lobby. Remember the glory days! 40 people! Uphill both ways, through snow, walking, and we liked it!
90 Troll Druid
20935
Whos to say that the new heroic mode wont be just as hard as the now heroic content? Mythic Content might just be that one step above that hardly any guilds will be reaching until much much later and even then. We have no idea what to expect out of these raids and what their difficulty will be. How many guilds have killed H Lei Shen or even will kill H Garrosh this tier? those raiders wont even get to see the Mythic content if there ever was one for those tier.
By adding another tier past Heroic how does that affect the Challenging 10m part of raiding? you can still raid up to heroic in 10 man if you so choose to.

The point is that they're removing the option for heroic content, unless you agree to do it in a 20m.

In Wrath for example, 10's were considered second-class citizens, subpar raiding that's far below what 25's were. And it was true. 10m gear was awful compared to 25m gear due to the ilevel difference. However, people could choose to essentially gimp themselves, yet still kill Arthas and Anub'arak on heroic mode. We could still complete the "hardest content in the game" while being second-class citizens. And I was okay with that, because I liked the 10m format.

Even if flex "heroic" is slightly harder than current normal modes, normal modes are not hard to a heroic caliber raider. They're a joke to us. I don't expect Blizzard to amp them up dramatically. As a heroic raider, permanently settling for "easy" content is not what I raid for. I, and my guild, want to complete the hardest content in the game. And we want to do so within our small environment.
90 Troll Druid
20935
Lore this isn't TBC and us going to WotLK where we had growing subs finally hitting 12million. We are now 7.6million subs and well look at your point number 2 and ever declining sub base make it easier for us to fine more players?

You of all people should know what it is like to run both 10 / 25 and also the entire recruiting process. You use to do it in Months Behind or maybe still do not sure.

All of this for Blizzard to make raid fights eaiser for themselves and as Ian said they can now put in something that require class specific things where they couldn't do it before because of 10man? that's it!

So it's screw your 10man guild for us to have a fight where you have 1 extra boss ability, not really sounding revolutionary. This smell of Cost Cuttings and Save $$

This x1000.
90 Human Death Knight
4860
I genuinely don't understand how creating such a high barrier to access the highest level of raiding can ultimately benefit the health of the game.


It's only a barrier if you allow it to be one. You can adapt and overcome or you can do 10m normal/heroic. GC already stated that 10m heroics will be similar to how they are now. So just wait and see how it goes instead of jumping ship.This really is a step forward for the many reasons they already stated, from more resources put into one mode to more challenging encounters not possible in 10m. It boils down to this: If you want to experience the most challenging content then you will try mythic, if you want the feel of a tight group then you will run 10m normal/heroic but you cannot have your cake and eat it too
90 Human Mage
13530
Thanks for the post Lore.

As I've said, heroic aka mythic raiders will know be getting the content they want and deserve and by content I don't mean raid size.
90 Orc Death Knight
0
11/12/2013 08:23 PMPosted by Domittus
I genuinely don't understand how creating such a high barrier to access the highest level of raiding can ultimately benefit the health of the game.


It's only a barrier if you allow it to be one. You can adapt and overcome or you can do 10m normal/heroic.


Thats not possible for all guilds on all servers. And no, connected realms wont solve all of those problems.

Also, youre not understanding GCs quote.
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