The good side of Mythic 20man

90 Dwarf Hunter
14760
Personally, I don't care so much about whether the content I'm doing is the hardest of the hard. If there was an uber crazy hard mode 20 man that was only really suitable for guilds that have already cleared SoO on heroic, I wouldn't feel much like I was missing out, because I never wanted to raid at that level (although there are some great 10 mans out there which do).

What bothers me most about this is not that I won't get to play with the big boys if I want to raid 10 man, it's that there won't be anything really to aspire to except farming content after a few weeks into a tier because they've said that the new heroic mode is essentially the difficulty of the current normals. I'm not in a guild that barrels down normals in a week, but we certainly don't spend close to an entire tier clearing them. The whole time we are clearing the normals in my group, my sights are set on the heroics where I feel like the fun part begins. I understand that top guilds have this happen now- they get the heroic modes cleared in weeks and then they're just farming, but for me the content currently lasts an entire tier and trying to squeeze in as many heroics as we can before the new stuff comes out is part of the challenge.

I don't begrudge the larger raid size their fun. I'm disappointed that Blizzard has decided that to give them their fun, we have to have ours removed. I'm not really sure the game will be much fun without it.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11825
Yeah, GC already stated that 10m heroic now will be more like 10m heroic in 6.0


GC also stated that 10M heroic in 6.0 will be the same as normal in 5.4. Every other developer asked about this has also stated that this is strictly a rebranding and not a tuning change.
90 Human Death Knight
4860
Thats not possible for all guilds on all servers. And no, connected realms wont solve all of those problems.

Also, youre not understanding GCs quote.


dave ‏@dj_setch 9 Nov

@Ghostcrawler Greg, sorry if its been asked and answered,just to clarify:Will current n raids, be the new hc? and current hc = mythic?


Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 9 Nov

@dj_setch Mostly. Current 10 heroics may be more like new 10 heroics.

What is there not to understand? I said 10m heroic will be similar to 10m heroics in 6.0. Not the same but similar
90 Pandaren Priest
NI
12980

The point is that they're removing the option for heroic content, unless you agree to do it in a 20m.

Heroic Is Still gonna be there and can be up to 25 people, and should still be the same diff as Mops Heroics. Mythic will be something different alltogether

In Wrath for example, 10's were considered second-class citizens, subpar raiding that's far below what 25's were. And it was true. 10m gear was awful compared to 25m gear due to the ilevel difference. However, people could choose to essentially gimp themselves, yet still kill Arthas and Anub'arak on heroic mode. We could still complete the "hardest content in the game" while being second-class citizens. And I was okay with that, because I liked the 10m format.

10 Mans had lower ilvl gear in which heroic 10 mans = normal 25 man. 25 man was also much harder than 10 mans so calling 10 man the hardest content is saying normal mode is the hardest mode of SOO.

Even if flex "heroic" is slightly harder than current normal modes, normal modes are not hard to a heroic caliber raider. They're a joke to us. I don't expect Blizzard to amp them up dramatically. As a heroic raider, permanently settling for "easy" content is not what I raid for. I, and my guild, want to complete the hardest content in the game. And we want to do so within our small environment.

Who says that flex "Heroic" will be Slightly harder than current normal modes and not current HEROIC modes? your assuming that heroic mode in 6.0 will be peace of cake which is yet to be determined


See inside Quote
90 Troll Druid
15265
What is there not to understand? I said 10m heroic will be similar to 10m heroics in 6.0. Not the same but similar


They're not. They've mentioned multiple times that the new heroics are equal to normal mode.
90 Human Death Knight
4860
What is there not to understand? I said 10m heroic will be similar to 10m heroics in 6.0. Not the same but similar

They're not. They've mentioned multiple times that the new heroics are equal to normal mode.


You are right and after the fact they also said that 10m heroic will be more like 10m heroic in 6.0. If you don't want to believe it then that is up to you but it was said. Take it for what it is worth. At least wait until beta hits and try the new heroics.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
5910
I'm not a heroic raider, in fact, I'm not much of a raider at all, so please forgive me for my ignorance. However, that aside, there do seem to be two glaring common sense problems here.

1. 10-man Heroic raiding guilds now have to double their roster. This means not only trying to recruit 10 more players of their skill, but finding 10 players who have similar schedules, and then trying to fit all of those 10 within the existing guild ranking order and social mechanics. That's not exactly easy, even with more connected realms coming out and the people getting shed by the 25-man Heroic raiding guilds that are downsizing. Speaking of which, they don't exactly have it easy either.

2. For the 25-man Heroic raiding guilds, they have a somewhat similar problem, if not in mechanics, in difficulty. The guild/raid leader now basically has to tell 5 of his/her raiders that they're not good enough. These people are probably his/her friends, people that have raided together for years. And now they're told that they're not good enough and are shown the door. To put it bluntly, that's probably one of the worst things socially that can happen to you in-game.

I'm sorry, but from my point of view, life seems to only be getting worse if you're a Heroic raider, not better. So, Blizz, until you can come up with some solid reasoning as to why 20-man Mythic is so much better, I'll stick with that as my opinion. And one last thing: Mythic will be better and healthier for raiding overall? I'll believe it when I see it.

Edited for grammar.
Edited by Aldirus on 11/12/2013 8:54 PM PST
90 Gnome Priest
17670
11/12/2013 08:10 PMPosted by Domittus
Nothing to do? My guild and two others are in talks of creating one big guild for mythic right now. We are taking all the necessary steps to make this transition smooth and to be ready once 6.0 hits. I suggest you do the same. Start recruiting. Once you have 14+ run flex so you can get a feel on these new people. The longer you wait to act the harder it will be.

Recruit from where? My guild spent two months trying to recruit a healer capable of heroic modes without success. I had offered to fill in while they were recruiting (I wasn't a member of the guild at the time) and ended up becoming a permanent member of the group.

It's fine for Blizzard to talk about how there will be more players on a server once everyone gets Connected Realms. That doesn't mean more raiders, let alone heroic raiders. If you look at the RP realms we're likely to grouped with, there are very few heroic guilds on them and really not all that many raid guilds active in normal at all other than on WrA and Moon Guard, which might be too large to be used for CR.

So again - where are the 10man guilds supposed to get the players from who are heroic capable?
90 Worgen Druid
10405
Lore, stop leaving blue post and get back to the marmot!
90 Draenei Priest
0
I raid in a 10 man only guild. Usually we get at least 3 or 4 heroic encounters down each patch and often much more at the end of an expansion (we killed heroic LK for example). And with these changes unless there is something for us to do after we clear Normal mode (6.0 Heroic) our guild will simply disband. We are a close group of 10 players, recruiting 10 more players will completely shift the dynamic of our roster. For most of us now we don't raid for the joy of raiding, the game as a whole has become too stale for us to get much enjoyment there. We raid because we love to hang out on Skype, kill bosses and have fun. That wont happen if we have to find 10 new players. It just will not happen. If these changes go live, all of us will simply stop playing. Not out of anger or petty revenge, we simple wont have anything to keep us coming back to the game. It will be a great shame for me to lose touch with these players simply because we have nothing to do after we clear normal (Heroic 6.0).

I think Blizz are over estimating how much interest the new expansion will garner. Its true that at the start of every expac folks come back to try it, but every expac iv been in since LK those same people realize that the game isn't what they are looking for and eventually just leave again. Where does that leave the 10 mans hoping to step into mythic?

With regards to 25 mans going from 25 to 20. Why do they need to drop 5 players, just rotate 5 players around. Much easier than dropping those 5 players. If that proves too difficult and the 25 man guilds DO have to drop 5 raiders. What happens at end of the patch and we all move back into normal modes (Heroic 6.0), they then have to go and re-recruit 5 people to fill out the 5 raiders they lost going from 25 man to 20 man. The 10 mans will have to either drop those 10 new players, leave them to do nothing until normal (Heroic 6.0) is cleared, rotate them in (rotate 10 players....righto), or hope like hell one or more of the 10 new members will be able to raid lead. All of this is assuming they can get along at all. The whole system is absurd to me.

I cant understand why Blizzard wont let us enjoy the game they way we want to enjoy it.
Edited by Serraphis on 11/12/2013 9:14 PM PST
90 Draenei Priest
0
Also, I cant understand where Blizz get the idea that there are that many skilled players left. On my server in particular there just is not enough skilled players. We spent at least 3 months recruiting a new DPS player. We had to go through so many because of raid time conflicts, poor performance in heroics, poor attendance. To have to find a whole 10 additional raiders, to DOUBLE our raid size, all of whom must capable, consistent and fit in the schedule while EVERY OTHER 10 man guild on the server does the same is an impossibility for us.

I implore Blizz not to go through with this, try to find another way.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11825
dave ‏@dj_setch 9 Nov

@Ghostcrawler Greg, sorry if its been asked and answered,just to clarify:Will current n raids, be the new hc? and current hc = mythic?


Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 9 Nov

@dj_setch Mostly. Current 10 heroics may be more like new 10 heroics.

What is there not to understand? I said 10m heroic will be similar to 10m heroics in 6.0. Not the same but similar


In this very thread, Lore posted "Flexible scaling for Heroic (or Mists of Pandaria's "Normal") difficulty." Ghostcrawler posted that the name changes were a rebranding and not a difficulty change.

What he means is that many 10H bosses are easy in comparison to 25H and so a difficulty with very hard normal bosses is close to 10H anyway (like Garrosh 10N being more difficult than most of the 10H bosses that follow him). Either that or he simply misspoke.
90 Troll Hunter
11255
11/12/2013 07:02 PMPosted by Firestyle
the current recruitment forum is not effective


The current recruitment forums are a complete jokefest, I still can't believe they turned it into what it is now, it's such a damn mess it's extremely hard to look through it. About to go to page 2? page 2 = page 1 now. They really need to bring back A/H recruitment, along with possibly giving players their own section, but the big help would be the A/H sections coming back.
Edited by Naumu on 11/12/2013 9:30 PM PST
13 Gnome Monk
15725
I am under the assumption that there are some people like myself that play on realms that are full of 10man guilds(There is literally 1 guild on my realm that runs 25s and they really drag !@# so to say), 20 man Mythic will be our demise(It is already difficult finding 10 qualified people to run 10 mans). The argument that "Connected Realms will help!" is for lack of a better term, STUPID. All connected realms will do is kill off raiding guilds just as quickly due to people on the realms being connected joining other 10 man guilds to do Mythic.

Simple math for you:

1 Guild(10man) + 1 Guild(10man) = 1 Guild(20man) + 1 Dead guild and a lost identity.

1 Guild(10man) + [2 Guilds(25man) - 10people(NO 25MAN GUILDS LULZ)]= 1 Guild(20man) + 5 Displaced people, a dead guild, and a lost identity.

I am sorry, but it is far too late in the game to change course. What should have happened is that Normal and Heroic should have stayed the same difficulty and become Flex Normal + Flex Heroic(AND NOT CROSSREALMABLE OUT OF THE DAMN GATE), 20man Mythic should have been a step up from Heroic instead of replacing it(Steamroll Normal > Progress in Heroic > Knock out Mythic fight per fight once able, allowing the hardest of the core to remain elite.), and again not have "Normal" and "Heroic" be crossrealm from the start.

Why don't we make an effort here, this is a serious statement btw, to either cater to casuals consistently or to cater to the hardcore consistently? Casuals can't do heroic because they don't have the drive or determination to do it, so let's make flex into normal, normal into heroic, and add Mythic so we can do 2 things at once:

1. Shake up the status quo

2. Make casuals happy because they can finally have Heroic gear without actually doing Heroic.
90 Pandaren Mage
14695
Lore, you guys need to think harder about this. I understand you already didn't come to te decision lightly, but there is TOO MUCH for 10 mans to lose with this. They are the MAJORITY if your heroic raiding scene and taking them down like this is unfair.
Evidence:
-some raid schedules, it's a miracle to find 10 people hopping on at the same times, adding 10 more to that schedule will be a challenge. You guys assume any and all recruits will be able to meet the times our groups use already. You're wrong.
-computer requirements. Yeah remember some of us raid 10 due to the fact that WE CAN'T RUN 25 MAN!!!!!!! 20 is nearly as bad and with the horrendous outcry of 25m raid performance this expansion you really need to think about it. Tone it down to 15.
-small raiding size. These tight knit 10 mans will not be very open to accepting a bunch if new people after raiding together for awhile and if they are it will just be awkward trying to mesh with a bunch of new people.
Guys, please. Make it 15 or something. People can run that fine, it's still in the middle, and its not too much of an onslaught of recruiting or removing. You have had 10 man around for almost 5 years now I think and suddenly taking it away like this just isn't cool. Sure, there's a "you can't always get what you want" argument to this, but after we've gotten used to 10 after having it for so long it really isn't fair to just take it away in an instant. If you really want the fixed raid size for mechanics sake, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do 15 man raiding! 20 is pushing computers and is almost a double roster for 10 mans. It just isn't fair. The same can be said for 25's, with 15 size they could effectively split into two groups, but they're probably content as it is now too. This is a poor decision because everyone has become so accustomed to ther raiding style now and the game is too far along for this kind of change.
90 Troll Shaman
13810
We recognize that, for some guilds, the transition from 10-player Heroic raiding to 20-player Mythic raiding is going to be something of a challenge. This wasn’t a decision we made lightly. Ultimately, we feel that the long-term benefits for everyone, such as better-tuned raid encounters, a faster encounter design process, and more variety in raid mechanics, are worth the short-term consequences – even for players in guilds facing this transition.

That said, I think there are several key factors worth bringing up that will help make the transition less frightening overall. For example:

1) This change is coming with an expansion. Historically, an expansion release has always been a volatile time for guild rosters – and a great time for recruitment. When everyone’s gear is suddenly equalized, the pool of potential recruits swells dramatically. It's also a time in which a lot of former players, friends, and guildmates return to the game. Sure, maybe not all of the above will be of the caliber you’re looking for as a Mythic-minded raiding guild, but you only need 10.

2) On a similar note, we’re continuing to roll out the Connected Realms feature. As more realms are connected, the potential recruitment pool on those realms will grow.

3) While 10-player guilds who want to do Mythic will need to pick up an extra 10 people, current 25-player guilds will need to shed some. That’s yet another thing that will lead into a higher pool of potential recruits.

4) Flexible scaling for Heroic (or Mists of Pandaria's "Normal") difficulty will allow many guilds to "ease in" to a 20-player raid size. Granted, if you’re planning on zoning into Mythic the first day it’s available, this won’t help you much, but for the guild that will spend a few weeks or months on Heroic (MoP Normal) difficulty before eventually clearing it and starting on Mythic, you’ll have plenty of time to expand your roster. What’s more, those new recruits won’t be expected to just warm the bench while they wait.

I think that’s an easy one to forget about. It’s easy to make a mental comparison between a Warlords of Draenor 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 20 for Mythic, and a Mists of Pandaria 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 25. But that comparison doesn’t really work, because the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)


Take a look at the oceanic recruitment forums the first page is entirely guilds looking for people not vice versa the pool of players in oceanic is not that vast... All the advice given to guilds makes no sense to a guild in my position. Every guild above our progression in oceanic raids a minimum of 50% extra per week than us (there is only one near us but below us that raids similar hours). We are not compatible with any of them. It took me 2 tiers of churning recruits to find players that can raid how we do and mesh how we do... We don't have the time in our lives to play 4 days a week, 3 is already pushing it. I want to be able to raid heroic with a small group that is simple to manage and organise, we raid well instead of long and play the 'hard' difficulty of this game.

I've SEEN what is available to recruit over the past few years for oceanic guilds and trust me there is not an abundance of good players out there. Combining the realms will have no effect for us beyond the occasional recruit because there isn't a substantial player base that is good enough to raid with us but doesnt want to put in lots of hours... it's just how oceanic guild works... I will push to raid mythic, but if it doesn't work out there would be no purpose to me or a large portion of my guild to continue... this game is pointless without heroic (mythic) raiding because that difficulty is easy enough as is.

Also to address a different point, mechanics that REQUIRE certain classes are terrible, if bop works to remove a deadly mechanic the correct answer is to bring enough paladins to negate it completely, a guild like mine might have 1,2 or even 3 paladins in 20 man but we wouldnt stack them ever. What happens if your mage can't come this week to spell steal that critical buff? What about classes that are generally weak to class specific mechanics like shamans? etc etc...
Edited by Furah on 11/12/2013 9:45 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
14665
@Lore Oh, okay. So you guys are no longer interested in "bring the player not the class"? Back in Wrath and before certain classes had great difficulty getting in a raid because they had to have another class because you guys put in some bs mechanic that you needed that class to resolve.

Now you're adding that crap back in (even more so than it is in there now, with needing range over melee for a lot of fights). Blizzard is just running out of interesting ideas for fights, plain and simple.

It's bad enough that you're renaming flexible raiding "normal" to make casual players feel like they are "real raiders." Flex itself is great. It's flexible. It's fun. Of course it can't possibly just be left alone. Oh, and it's lovely that none of the modes share a lockout...because those of us that take gearing seriously definitely won't feel pressured to do all that we can, right?

It is hard for me to get excited about expansions now. Half the stuff sounds really great, then Blizzard has to go and add in all sorts of stupidity to try their best to ruin it. I mean, really, mythical 20 man? All you are going to do is make a bunch of people (cumulatively) miserable about being the 5 that had to go from their raid team (either from not having some spell that is needed for a new mechanic or not being able to make the new cut) or being a 10 man team having to deal with picking through a bunch of people when really you don't want to have to deal with that many people for a raid team. It will survive the first little stage of the expansion because people will be distracted by leveling and seeing the new things out there, and then it will get old that you had to go mess with their raiding. I like 25 man. Not 20 man. 25 man. A lot of people like 10 man. Not 20 man. You get the idea. These preferences are even more important to people that take their raiding seriously and want to get through end-game content. Some things don't need to be messed with. A good number of people wanted LFR to be done away with and flex be the option for casual players. I don't recall many people wanting LFR to be there, flex to be normal, and so on so forth. If you just can't let something be, why can't you listen to the player base that has given better suggestions to fix many aspects of the game than your own employees?
Edited by Laneia on 11/12/2013 9:53 PM PST
10 Pandaren Hunter
12865
Another kick in the face of people on lower population servers. Merge or do whatever you want people are leaving or quiting and rerolling off of the mid to low pop servers due to the lack of player base for raiding at all levels. Several servers have no more then 1 or 2 !@#$ty 25 man raids right now much less ones that can even attempt heroics. Sure feels like we just got a %^-* sandwich and you kept the bread.
10 Pandaren Hunter
12865
@Lore Oh, okay. So you guys are no longer interested in "bring the player not the class"? Back in Wrath and before certain classes had great difficulty getting in a raid because they had to have another class because you guys put in some bs mechanic that you needed that class to resolve.

Now you're adding that crap back in (even more so than it is in there now, with needing range over melee for a lot of fights). Blizzard is just running out of interesting ideas for fights, plain and simple.

It's bad enough that you're renaming flexible raiding "normal" to make casual players feel like they are "real raiders." Flex itself is great. It's flexible. It's fun. Of course it can't possibly just be left alone. Oh, and it's lovely that none of the modes share a lockout...because those of us that take gearing seriously definitely won't feel pressured to do all that we can, right?

It is hard for me to get excited about expansions now. Half the stuff sounds really great, then Blizzard has to go and add in all sorts of stupidity to try their best to ruin it. I mean, really, mythical 20 man? All you are going to do is make a bunch of people (cumulatively) miserable about being the 5 that had to go from their raid team (either from not having some spell that is needed for a new mechanic or not being able to make the new cut) or being a 10 man team having to deal with picking through a bunch of people when really you don't want to have to deal with that many people for a raid team. It will survive the first little stage of the expansion because people will be distracted by leveling and seeing the new things out there, and then it will get old that you had to go mess with their raiding. I like 25 man. Not 20 man. 25 man. A lot of people like 10 man. Not 20 man. You get the idea. These preferences are even more important to people that take their raiding seriously and want to get through end-game content. Some things don't need to be messed with. A good number of people wanted LFR to be done away with and flex be the option for casual players. I don't recall many people wanting LFR to be there, flex to be normal, and so on so forth. If you just can't let something be, why can't you listen to the player base that has given better suggestions to fix many aspects of the game than your own employees?


Politicians running for office give less double talk and nonsense then the blue posts and twitter bull. At least they could have the decency to not call it rain when they piss on us.
90 Human Death Knight
9805
whats the big deal? half of the people concerned in the forums will not make it to mythic content anyway.
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