The good side of Mythic 20man

90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Let's go, boss #3- 2x shadow priests for mind controls!
100 Pandaren Monk
12810
if i read that right he said current normal & Heroic will be Flex so am i able to bring in 20 people to a 10m Raid or is this coming in another hotfix?
also if people are worried about comp performance in WoD there is going to be Number crunch which mean less lag on heroism with more people.
10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
if people really think we will see every class represented, please be realistic.

high end raiding is a game of class stacking. the ONLY time you get variety is when one class offers a tool that breaks a fight (ie: gorefiends grasp, smoke bomb to avoid stuff on lei shen, and so on)

the best performer will be brought in droves. your warlocks, rogues, and so on.
90 Worgen Druid
9290
We recognize that, for some guilds, the transition from 10-player Heroic raiding to 20-player Mythic raiding is going to be something of a challenge. This wasn’t a decision we made lightly. Ultimately, we feel that the long-term benefits for everyone, such as better-tuned raid encounters, a faster encounter design process, and more variety in raid mechanics, are worth the short-term consequences – even for players in guilds facing this transition.

That said, I think there are several key factors worth bringing up that will help make the transition less frightening overall. For example:

1) This change is coming with an expansion. Historically, an expansion release has always been a volatile time for guild rosters – and a great time for recruitment. When everyone’s gear is suddenly equalized, the pool of potential recruits swells dramatically. It's also a time in which a lot of former players, friends, and guildmates return to the game. Sure, maybe not all of the above will be of the caliber you’re looking for as a Mythic-minded raiding guild, but you only need 10.

2) On a similar note, we’re continuing to roll out the Connected Realms feature. As more realms are connected, the potential recruitment pool on those realms will grow.

3) While 10-player guilds who want to do Mythic will need to pick up an extra 10 people, current 25-player guilds will need to shed some. That’s yet another thing that will lead into a higher pool of potential recruits.

4) Flexible scaling for Heroic (or Mists of Pandaria's "Normal") difficulty will allow many guilds to "ease in" to a 20-player raid size. Granted, if you’re planning on zoning into Mythic the first day it’s available, this won’t help you much, but for the guild that will spend a few weeks or months on Heroic (MoP Normal) difficulty before eventually clearing it and starting on Mythic, you’ll have plenty of time to expand your roster. What’s more, those new recruits won’t be expected to just warm the bench while they wait.

I think that’s an easy one to forget about. It’s easy to make a mental comparison between a Warlords of Draenor 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 20 for Mythic, and a Mists of Pandaria 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 25. But that comparison doesn’t really work, because the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)


First off hardcore raiding guilds aren't looking at gear to determine if that player is skilled enough to be a part of that guild. It's a very small factor. Obviously we're not going to recruit somebody with a 502 ilvl while progressing on heroic Garrosh. We look at raiding history, logs, and interviews to gauge personalities along with a multitude of other things.

Secondly, why would we want to recruit the bottom players who get shed from a 25 man being that they were removed from raiding for poor performance?

Recruiting isn't as easy as grabbing random players out of a pool as you(Blizzard) think it must be. It's incredibly difficult. Especially when all the other 10 man guild are going to be desperately trying to double their roster in the same time frame between now and the xpac.

I'm just amazed on how far out of touch Blizzard is with the community.
Edited by Towldek on 11/12/2013 10:06 PM PST
90 Tauren Druid
13205
11/12/2013 05:02 PMPosted by Aelathel
Make it mythic 15 and the complaints go away.


No. 25 man guilds would take the forums by storm the instant it was announced something like that. Both sides still lose again regardless.

Nearly all 25 mans have at least 5 people on bench, so 15 would allow them to just split into two teams, rather than shedding anyone. With that said, I have primarily raided 25's from DS onward. I have been through a successful guild merger (two 10 mans) halfway through ToT. The guild disbanded after we killed Garrosh, but it didn't appear to be related to the merger itself, and we got through an expansion and a half together.

Not directed at you, but the "all 10 man guilds are just whiny crybabies" gloating is really childish. Several people have said that this change would end the 10 vs. 25 debate, instead, it's escalating it to be much nastier than before. :( Yes, a lot of 10 mans will disband from this. Even more will be impacted by the move to all non-Mythic raid difficulties going to x-realm. They'll get some new people, but a lot will just pug, and any group that doesn't have a Mythic raid team will be viewed as being the equivalent of Flex-only guilds now.
100 Troll Warlock
16255
I'd also call into question the statement of "It's easier to drop people than it is to recruit them." It's technically true, yes -- finding new raiders is harder than just not inviting the ones you have -- but totally ignores the fact that cutting people from your roster often means losing people you like. Which feels better: making new friends, or telling your current ones that they don't get to play with you any more? We're already asking a lot of many 25-player Heroic groups to cut 5 people.


If you look on the other side, "making new friends" also means that, that "new friend" left his/her old friends (guild). Behind every new friend made, there is a friend lost, because the player base isn't increasing.

Heroic-quality players aren't usually guildless - they raid with their current friends (guilds). In this perspective, massively recruiting is synonymous to massively disbanding/poaching players from other guilds. Perhaps guilds can pick up one or two players that fit in without causing trouble for other guilds. Any further recruitment will cause other guilds to collapse.
90 Gnome Rogue
16605
Hmm, recruit 10 more people for all the 10 man guilds vs dropping 5 people for all the few 25 mans? Totally makes sense, "so hard" for both sides, please...

IMO 10 mans getting screwed and everyone is either gonna raid 20 or not. It is what it is peeps, get used to it, oh and don't cry cuz you couldn't get that awesome vanity item or legendary weapon rewarded to those you know, Mythic Heroes!

Perhaps when subs drop even more they'll make everyone happy again and make mythic a 5man? woohoo!

Deep down i cant help but feel the most bitter/sweet feelings ever as a fan of blizzard since this years blizzcon...either the uppers are just getting old and cant quite get it straight or perhaps they simply running out of ideas.

"...but please leave your feedback, we'd love to hear from all of you!"
Edited by Tinyrob on 11/12/2013 10:16 PM PST
10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
im genuinely curious: if you think this is best for the game, then why didnt you get rid of 10's this expansion?

why offer incentive such as better odds of warforged...all of a sudden, the most popular format gets abandoned in favor of the least popular one.

I just cant make sense of it. im not suggesting 25 should be scrapped, it shouldnt...but why was 20 chosen and not say, 10 or 15?
100 Orc Shaman
13885
you are going to GUT your subscriber base. not sure who made the decision on this one, or who gave it the thumbs up, but i would wager this to be a historically poor choice in game design lol.

I'm saying this as a current 25h raider. I could personally care less about 10m and the mythic raid size wouldn't even be hard to adjust from a 25 man. But, i think you will find that a LOT of 10's are just going to quit instead of trying to build a 20m mythic team. God knows, i would.
100 Draenei Priest
11945
Take a look at the oceanic recruitment forums the first page is entirely guilds looking for people not vice versa the pool of players in oceanic is not that vast... All the advice given to guilds makes no sense to a guild in my position. Every guild above our progression in oceanic raids a minimum of 50% extra per week than us (there is only one near us but below us that raids similar hours). We are not compatible with any of them. It took me 2 tiers of churning recruits to find players that can raid how we do and mesh how we do... We don't have the time in our lives to play 4 days a week, 3 is already pushing it. I want to be able to raid heroic with a small group that is simple to manage and organise, we raid well instead of long and play the 'hard' difficulty of this game.

I've SEEN what is available to recruit over the past few years for oceanic guilds and trust me there is not an abundance of good players out there. Combining the realms will have no effect for us beyond the occasional recruit because there isn't a substantial player base that is good enough to raid with us but doesnt want to put in lots of hours... it's just how oceanic guild works... I will push to raid mythic, but if it doesn't work out there would be no purpose to me or a large portion of my guild to continue... this game is pointless without heroic (mythic) raiding because that difficulty is easy enough as is.

Also to address a different point, mechanics that REQUIRE certain classes are terrible, if bop works to remove a deadly mechanic the correct answer is to bring enough paladins to negate it completely, a guild like mine might have 1,2 or even 3 paladins in 20 man but we wouldnt stack them ever. What happens if your mage can't come this week to spell steal that critical buff? What about classes that are generally weak to class specific mechanics like shamans? etc etc...


Also an oceanic 10 man guild. Your story regarding recruitment is pretty much exactly the same as our story. There just isn't enough talent on oceanic servers to satisfy even CURRENT demands much less when every 10 man guild needs to double their roster.

I feel like Blizz are operating under some kind of ideal model of their game that seems right on paper but that doesn't exist in reality. Like they went to the drawing board and said: "You know what, 20 man heroics. We can guarantee all classes will be accounted for so we can tune and design accordingly!". Then someone brings up the topic of 10 man guilds: "What about the 10 man guilds what are they going to do?". Then the dude who came up with 20 mans says: "Well they can recruit of course! Its so simple!". But its not even close ><.

Maybe the folks who made this decision are in guilds or on servers where recruitment is that easy, but its kind of narrow minded to assume that all guilds and servers are like that.
Edited by Serraphis on 11/12/2013 10:22 PM PST
90 Gnome Rogue
16605
I just cant make sense of it. im not suggesting 25 should be scrapped, it shouldnt...but why was 20 chosen and not say, 10 or 15?


Now if mythic was announced to be a 15man raid, that would be more reasonable i think. both 10man and the 25man guilds would have to recruit 5 more people. 25man guilds will simply run 2 mythic raids ;)
100 Draenei Priest
11945
But, i think you will find that a LOT of 10's are just going to quit instead of trying to build a 20m mythic team. God knows, i would.


You make a good point lol. I think you're right, for a lot of 10 man guilds its literally going to be easier and less painful to just stop raiding that it is to find 10 new players who fit into your guild. Or <shudder> go through the nightmare that would be a guild merge.

I know our guild will simply cease raiding if things go a head as planned. And its not a "omg im so mad im going to stop paying so blizz will notice our plight!". Its just simply easier to stop raiding/playing.
100 Tauren Paladin
11025
I have to agree with Tree and Broly on this call forcing people into 20s to raid is just plain ludicrous hell it's hard enough in our guild to get 10 people on at the same time unless it's a raid night set weeks in advance we want to do heroics and now you're forcing us to add 10 more in order to do this?

That is absolutely a slap in the face to both types of guilds add in the removal of the personal loot system back to the old and you have a recipe for disaster the only reason most of us in my guild do lfr is to get interim gear to survive working on normal we shouldn't have to group with a load of loudmouthed jerks that only know their class doing recounts every boss fight and Insulting everyone having yet something else to lord over our heads. Did you even think about that seriously do an LFR yourselves with the min gear score needed and you then respond to me saying that that personal loot system doesn't at last give you something to look forward to after all the abuse. Now take that away add in all the abuse and couple it with threats of hey guess what you didn't kiss my butt you don't get this hurr durr I can guarantee it'll happen.

I guess what I'm trying to say is put yourselves in the shoes of others before forcing those gaudy sandles onto others. 20 is only gonna end up in loads of frustration on both sides of the fence. and killing the personal loot system is gonna end up with a lot more drama then already happens. neither is solving anything it's only adding into the inevitability of more problems.


You have it all wrong and none of what you said makes sense.

1) Personal loot isn't being removed. Your raid leader can choose group loot, master looter, etc. OR he can choose personal loot in every mode except Mythic.

2) The 20-man requirement is ONLY for Mythic. You have never raided heroic (what will be Mythic in WoD) when it was current content. If what you said is true: "it's hard enough in our guild to get 10 people on at the same time unless it's a raid night set weeks in advance" then you are not in a guild that is capable of doing Mythic, so the change doesn't affect you.

In closing, you are either confused about what the change is and who it affects or you have deluded yourself into thinking that you and your guild are capable of doing Mythic content.
90 Worgen Druid
14130
This flies in the face of what has been a blizzard mantra for the last few patches, bring the player not the class. So the new mythic encounters will have class specific elements. So even if you do manage to find 10 extra people that can make your raid times and have the know how to do hard modes and the willingness to not lose patience during the wipes you are going to have to make sure you have certain classes included to get this done.

I just don't think this takes into consideration the non-hardcore but serious 10 man adult guilds. Guilds like mine that are very large(we have 3 raid teams) but they all run on different days & times just due to scheduling conflicts. We have run our fair share of 25 man raids since BC/Wrath but ultimately run into the same problem it is too hard to coordinate 25 schedules long term. Coordinating 20 schedules will not be any easier.

Folks with kids have sports schedules/practices to contend with. Kids in college have class changes every semester. Ultimately the biggest obstacle to the large raids is just the logistics of it all. It's great you want to provide more challenging content but what good is all that money and time spent designing these encounters if less then 3% of your player base can actually enjoy it? Should you really be catering to guilds like Method and others you invite to Blizz Conn simply because they devour your content in a few weeks no matter how hard you design it? What about the other 90% of your raiding player base that have overwhelming chosen to raid in 10 man raids instead of the larger harder to manage raid sizes?

The last patch was released in September and 2.5 months into it my 10 man raid is just a few pulls away from killing Garrosh. We raid 6 hours a week. We are all looking forward to spending the rest of this patch until the next expansion working on hard modes. My guess is if this is the final decision about raiding then a lot of us will not be buying the expansion. There just won't be enough challenging end game content to justify spending the money and time leveling a character and clearing the new normal/heroic content knowing that we maybe have 2-3 months worth of raiding to look forward too.
90 Tauren Death Knight
20225
As a raid leader for the last 6 years and an exclusively 10 man raider since t14 (done heroic progression every tier), I have to say I agree with Lore that even though I see a lot of 10 man groups complaining, I'd say 25 man groups have the worse deal. They are being forced to cut players from their roster in order to continue raiding. 10 mans only have to recruit new people, which, if you're on a decently populated server and not at the bottom of your server's raiding ladder, is a fairly simple thing to do.

As it is, if I was able to accept half the talented raiders who've wanted to join our group in the last month only, I could run a 20 man with a bench of 10 raiders to pull from. If we'd had separate lockouts for normal and the ability to run with as many as we wanted, up to 25, we COULD have recruited them.

Fact is, unless you're going straight into Mythic right after week 1, you'll have the flexibility you need to recruit up to 20, particularly since many people don't get themselves attached to raid groups before hitting level cap. If you ARE going straight into Mythic, then you have the recruiting clout to get the 10 people you'll need before WoD even launches.

Tbh, the people I think this hits the hardest (aside from 25 man HC groups that've been together for ages) is the 10 mans that only do normals (will be heroics) that have heroic (will by mythic) aspirations. They don't have the recruiting clout to get the extras they need, but the fact is if you're < 13/14N right now and you started SoO the first week, you really don't need to be worrying about having 20 people, you just won't be doing Mythic raiding.

I'm sorry if that seems rude but unless your group progresses very quickly in terms of both skill and persistence, the "20 man conversion" is not a problem you're really dealing with. Unfortunately, I do recognize that a lot of players who aren't even capable of mythic raiding will rule out 10-15 man groups simply because it eliminates any possibility of doing mythics, but for most (~75% based on WoWProgress) raid groups this is really not even an issue they'll have to deal with.
Edited by Mcpwnster on 11/12/2013 11:31 PM PST
90 Pandaren Priest
12305
The wall text, it hurts!
100 Worgen Mage
17460
You make a good point lol. I think you're right, for a lot of 10 man guilds its literally going to be easier and less painful to just stop raiding that it is to find 10 new players who fit into your guild. Or <shudder> go through the nightmare that would be a guild merge.

I know our guild will simply cease raiding if things go a head as planned. And its not a "omg im so mad im going to stop paying so blizz will notice our plight!". Its just simply easier to stop raiding/playing.


The irony that I face right now is that when the change was first suggested to bring 10 man's up to 25 I spent a lot of effort warning - on the old forums no less - that this would have dire consequences for the 25 man raiding format. The result looking back? It had dire consequences on the 25 man raiding format.

Now part of that was the problem of difficulties. 10 man was Wrath's version of LFR without a queuing system and 10 man heroic was a nice step up to see slightly more difficult content. 25 normal was yet another step as was 25 heroic - and the bottom of the rung (10 normal) was simply not far off LFR in it's ease of killing.

When the change was first made, 10 mans got a huge increas in difficulty and to replace the nice easy access raids for the rest of the players was..... well there was nothing.

The thing is, I did many calculations after this change was brought in, and posted them on the forums, showing that the best data we as general players have access to shows that the number of players that stop raiding altogether after the change, was greater than the number of players who moved to 10 man and raiding took a significant hit in it's completion rates. Ultimately, the change to 10 man being equalized with 25's was the direct and indirect cause of the failure of raiding in Cataclysm and the drastic decline in population who actually raid.

From a development point of view, putting two difficulties in with equal footing designed to be in such a way where you can argue that they are the "Same" has never worked. Never. You can say that on an "overall" basis the differences average out somewhat and they could be called "balanced" in that respect, but a ridiculous amount of work goes into trying to constantly mesh two raid sizes that are intrinsically different. There is simply no way to compare the two on equal footing. The spacing, the number of classes, overall raid damage, unique abilities like the lightning connecters in Dragon Soul - all these serve to show that the two formats are inherently different and can never BE balances to be equal. Blizzard has had several years now to try to do this and it is clear from their discussion points and what they are saying that one of the biggest side effects of doing this balancing act is that they are forced to remove or not include more interesting fight mechanics in order to keep them "the same". You can see it in action even just by reading the Dungeon Journal and looking at the differences between the formats.

So for Blizzard, who has spent years trying to get the system working well has an end result of a system that simply does not work well. Yes the players wanting 10 man mythic raids as their own thing will not be happy in this change, but this unties the developers hands from their raid design. It greatly reduces the need for constant balance adjustments between multiple sizes to keep them "the same". It reduces the requirements for adjustments to loot distribution and overall gives them more time to work on more content rather than making the current amalgam function.

End of the day, they brought in the 10/25 Paradigm because they had a vision of how they wanted the game to look. With respect to the 10 man raiders, the game is not where they wanted it to be and despite so many 10 man raiders liking the system, the system has never worked well from a game design perspective and simply ties up too much development time trying to bandaid everything together. This is their attempt to fix the problem - and just as the change to 25 man raiding brought with it a cost, so will this one. I can guarantee right now though, that the cost of the change will not be known until after it happens despite any of our opinions being posted here.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12965
the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)


Just for clarification does this mean we will be able to take more than 10 but less than 26 into Normal Raids?

example: Say we have a 10 man scheduled and everyone show up plus 4 standbys. Does it mean we can now take the extra 4 as well an have it scale to 14? (Normal not Flex)
90 Worgen Druid
9290
11/12/2013 10:52 PMPosted by Euki
the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)


Just for clarification does this mean we will be able to take more than 10 but less than 26 into Normal Raids?

example: Say we have a 10 man scheduled and everyone show up plus 4 standbys. Does it mean we can now take the extra 4 as well an have it scale to 14? (Normal not Flex)


yes, but it might screw with healing numbers depending if all 4 extras are solely dps.
Edited by Towldek on 11/12/2013 10:55 PM PST
90 Tauren Death Knight
20225
This flies in the face of what has been a blizzard mantra for the last few patches, bring the player not the class. So the new mythic encounters will have class specific elements. So even if you do manage to find 10 extra people that can make your raid times and have the know how to do hard modes and the willingness to not lose patience during the wipes you are going to have to make sure you have certain classes included to get this done.

I just don't think this takes into consideration the non-hardcore but serious 10 man adult guilds. Guilds like mine that are very large(we have 3 raid teams) but they all run on different days & times just due to scheduling conflicts. We have run our fair share of 25 man raids since BC/Wrath but ultimately run into the same problem it is too hard to coordinate 25 schedules long term. Coordinating 20 schedules will not be any easier.

Folks with kids have sports schedules/practices to contend with. Kids in college have class changes every semester. Ultimately the biggest obstacle to the large raids is just the logistics of it all. It's great you want to provide more challenging content but what good is all that money and time spent designing these encounters if less then 3% of your player base can actually enjoy it? Should you really be catering to guilds like Method and others you invite to Blizz Conn simply because they devour your content in a few weeks no matter how hard you design it? What about the other 90% of your raiding player base that have overwhelming chosen to raid in 10 man raids instead of the larger harder to manage raid sizes?

The last patch was released in September and 2.5 months into it my 10 man raid is just a few pulls away from killing Garrosh. We raid 6 hours a week. We are all looking forward to spending the rest of this patch until the next expansion working on hard modes. My guess is if this is the final decision about raiding then a lot of us will not be buying the expansion. There just won't be enough challenging end game content to justify spending the money and time leveling a character and clearing the new normal/heroic content knowing that we maybe have 2-3 months worth of raiding to look forward too.


Stormbeebes, this isn't meant to be personal as I realize you could be trying to speak for others, but just taking a quick glance at your toon and guild's achievements, it doesn't look like you guys really do heroics so this isn't going to affect you.

I'm not trying to be attacking, it is just that I'm seeing lots of people sweating these changes and how Blizz is getting rid of 10 mans, but the fact of the matter is they're only getting rid of 10 man HEROIC raiding, and only 10 man guilds that actually raid heroics have something the be worried about.

My guild is in a similar situation where we have multiple raid groups running different schedules, and I've talked with some of the other raid leaders about this change and it shocked me to hear that all of them were trying to figure out how to get to a 20 person roster, when really a group that has trouble getting through normals by the end of the tier should probably just treat this as good news, as they won't have to worry about being held hostage to unreliable raiders as much in the future.

Really, a normal mode raid group worrying about this change to heroics (mythics) is like dps worrying about tank talents. It's nice that they care, but it doesn't really affect them unless they decide to switch and do it themselves some day.
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