The good side of Mythic 20man

90 Troll Warlock
14795
This flies in the face of what has been a blizzard mantra for the last few patches, bring the player not the class. So the new mythic encounters will have class specific elements. So even if you do manage to find 10 extra people that can make your raid times and have the know how to do hard modes and the willingness to not lose patience during the wipes you are going to have to make sure you have certain classes included to get this done.

I just don't think this takes into consideration the non-hardcore but serious 10 man adult guilds. Guilds like mine that are very large(we have 3 raid teams) but they all run on different days & times just due to scheduling conflicts. We have run our fair share of 25 man raids since BC/Wrath but ultimately run into the same problem it is too hard to coordinate 25 schedules long term. Coordinating 20 schedules will not be any easier.

Folks with kids have sports schedules/practices to contend with. Kids in college have class changes every semester. Ultimately the biggest obstacle to the large raids is just the logistics of it all. It's great you want to provide more challenging content but what good is all that money and time spent designing these encounters if less then 3% of your player base can actually enjoy it? Should you really be catering to guilds like Method and others you invite to Blizz Conn simply because they devour your content in a few weeks no matter how hard you design it? What about the other 90% of your raiding player base that have overwhelming chosen to raid in 10 man raids instead of the larger harder to manage raid sizes?

The last patch was released in September and 2.5 months into it my 10 man raid is just a few pulls away from killing Garrosh. We raid 6 hours a week. We are all looking forward to spending the rest of this patch until the next expansion working on hard modes. My guess is if this is the final decision about raiding then a lot of us will not be buying the expansion. There just won't be enough challenging end game content to justify spending the money and time leveling a character and clearing the new normal/heroic content knowing that we maybe have 2-3 months worth of raiding to look forward too.


Stormbeebes, this isn't meant to be personal as I realize you could be trying to speak for others, but just taking a quick glance at your toon and guild's achievements, it doesn't look like you guys really do heroics so this isn't going to affect you.

I'm not trying to be attacking, it is just that I'm seeing lots of people sweating these changes and how Blizz is getting rid of 10 mans, but the fact of the matter is they're only getting rid of 10 man HEROIC raiding, and only 10 man guilds that actually raid heroics have something the be worried about.

My guild is in a similar situation where we have multiple raid groups running different schedules, and I've talked with some of the other raid leaders about this change and it shocked me to hear that all of them were trying to figure out how to get to a 20 person roster, when really a group that has trouble getting through normals by the end of the tier should probably just treat this as good news, as they won't have to worry about being held hostage to unreliable raiders as much in the future.

Really, a normal mode raid group worrying about this change to heroics (mythics) is like dps worrying about tank talents. It's nice that they care, but it doesn't really affect them unless they decide to switch and do it themselves some day.


We raid 10m heroic and I'm sure there are many other heroic 10m guilds with limitations such as timzone, language, raid hours, etc. We may not be the majority but our concerns are very real and valid.
90 Draenei Priest
17305
I'm sorry if that seems rude but unless your group progresses very quickly in terms of both skill and persistence, the "20 man conversion" is not a problem you're really dealing with


I could not disagree with you more. Heroic (soon to be Mythic) progression is not exclusive to guilds that clear the content in the first two weeks. Just because a guild progresses more slowly doesn't mean that they are incapable of doing the content, and expecting them to settle for normals then twiddle their thumbs for three months waiting for the next tier of content is ridiculous.
90 Worgen Mage
20350
Should take a big load off when it comes tuning. 4 formats to be concerned with in the past (10N/25N/10H/25H) -- now just one. Lower difficulty raids using the flexible scaling system will be very loose to accomodate the scaling buff for any group size between 10-25. PTR raid testing won't be as rushed either. Overall, less buggy and more quality content.

Everything but mythic cross-server is certainly interesting. Will have to see if it adversely affects guild raiding. Blizzard was hesitant with current tier normals. Perhaps it was overblown.
Edited by Digerati on 11/12/2013 11:09 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
With 10 classes, maybe. With 11, 12, 13, etc... not really. It's a future-proofing thing.


We HAVE 11 classes right now. Going to 12 next expansion won't really change anything regarding 15 or 20 and the ability to design fights therein, and the number of classes isn't going to explode much - they already have issues with existing classes as is.

That explanation is even weaker than their actual one.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/12/2013 11:11 PM PST
90 Tauren Druid
18460
So you can't make Maulgar-style fights unless you have an exact 20-man raid size...

Yet the same fights will still be available for 10 to 25 people on the other 3 difficulties...

Did I get that right?
90 Tauren Paladin
9160
11/12/2013 08:54 PMPosted by Serraphis
For most of us now we don't raid for the joy of raiding, the game as a whole has become too stale for us to get much enjoyment there. We raid because we love to hang out on Skype, kill bosses and have fun.


Why can't you hang out in Skype, kill bosses and have fun in normal and heroic? You even said yourself that you barely even kill much in heroic and it isn't until the end of the tier. If the game is so stale, and you play because you enjoy your friends' company, then why does the Mythic change matter to you? Is it because you are lying and that you really just want to complain for no good reason?
90 Tauren Death Knight
20155
11/12/2013 11:05 PMPosted by Faybelle
I'm sorry if that seems rude but unless your group progresses very quickly in terms of both skill and persistence, the "20 man conversion" is not a problem you're really dealing with


I could not disagree with you more. Heroic (soon to be Mythic) progression is not exclusive to guilds that clear the content in the first two weeks. Just because a guild progresses more slowly doesn't mean that they are incapable of doing the content, and expecting them to settle for normals then twiddle their thumbs for three months waiting for the next tier of content is ridiculous.


I didn't say you had to clear it in the first week, but I am saying that for guilds that don't actually clear normals or only barely clear normals before the tier ends, this isn't really an organizational problem that they're facing. Yes, I am saying with that that a group who might spend 1-2 weeks trying some heroics at the end of a tier don't really need to worry about this, it's just not their MO.

It sounds as though, in your case, that you spend several MONTHS working on heroic progression, so obviously you'll be affected by this and your group will need to adapt to continue doing what they do next xpac. My comment about the first week thing in the previous case was that guilds who have a few weeks to spend on normals can try and recruit additional players and because the content flexibly scales they can actually get them into the group without having to recruit directly between 10 and 20. Honestly I've always found the beginning of an expansion to be great recruiting time (you rush to max level and then snipe all those who are the only person who hit level cap in their guild the first day since they need people to run with =D ) so you can use that time to recruit up to 15-20, and then the time you're clearing normal to recruit the remaining ones you need.

I think one of the biggest sources of strife seems to be that 10 man guilds are worried what's going to happen to their guild, Blizz might be foolishly hoping that people who hadn't previously done heroics will do mythics, or that people will return to the game to fill those spots, but more than likely I'd say it's perfectly reasonable that (at least) half the 10 man heroic guilds currently in the game will die off, fall apart or not doing mythic raiding. Sucks.
90 Dwarf Hunter
14750
As a raid leader for the last 6 years and an exclusively 10 man raider since t14 (done heroic progression every tier), I have to say I agree with Bashiok with Lore that even though I see a lot of 10 man groups complaining, I'd say 25 man groups have the worse deal. They are being forced to cut players from their roster in order to continue raiding. 10 mans only have to recruit new people, which, if you're on a decently populated server and not at the bottom of your server's raiding ladder, is a fairly simple thing to do.

As it is, if I was able to accept half the talented raiders who've wanted to join our group in the last month only, I could run a 20 man with a bench of 10 raiders to pull from. If we'd had separate lockouts for normal and the ability to run with as many as we wanted, up to 25, we COULD have recruited them.


You're on Area 52, which from what I understand is the horde equivalent of my server- chock full of players and reasonably high end raid guilds. People transfer to my server from dead servers all over to join raid guilds, so I'm assuming you experience a similar phenomenon. Your guilds is also reasonably progressed so I'm not surprised you're not having that much difficulty filling your raid.

Many of the people posting in this thread are on servers where the recruiting pool is far weaker. Some of them play during schedules which aren't peak times, where it's more difficult to keep a raid staffed. The EU guilds suffer from other issues such as language compatibility. Some of the groups may raid heroics but not progress as fast as your group, and therefore are likely to suffer bleed to groups which progress faster (no doubt that's where most of your apps come from). There are many reasons why most 10 man groups will have a harder time upgrading their raids to mythic size than you seem to think.

Expansions also tend to cause some player loss to raids regardless, so while you're losing mostly the players who'd already be leaving with a new expansion and have to pare down a bit less, they'll be trying to build up to over twice as large a raid group, dealing with loss of players, and having to fight every other 10 man out there trying to do the same thing for the good players that might be out there.

That's before you even consider whether they will actually enjoy leading a 20 man group. I have enough experience with leading 25 man groups to know I don't want to go back to it.

Anyone claiming that 25 mans are going through anywhere near the impact as 10 mans from this change is lying to themselves or deluded.
90 Tauren Death Knight
20155

We raid 10m heroic and I'm sure there are many other heroic 10m guilds with limitations such as timzone, language, raid hours, etc. We may not be the majority but our concerns are very real and valid.


I didn't say they weren't, I just wanted to make sure the person I quoted knew that the changes were only affecting heroic (mythic) raid groups and that normal (heroic) raid groups are still going to be able to run with 10 people if they want to.
90 Draenei Priest
0
For most of us now we don't raid for the joy of raiding, the game as a whole has become too stale for us to get much enjoyment there. We raid because we love to hang out on Skype, kill bosses and have fun.


Why can't you hang out in Skype, kill bosses and have fun in normal and heroic? You even said yourself that you barely even kill much in heroic and it isn't until the end of the tier. If the game is so stale, and you play because you enjoy your friends' company, then why does the Mythic change matter to you? Is it because you are lying and that you really just want to complain for no good reason?


No because we kill normal before the next tier of content is available. Just because we don't get to kill more than the first 4 or so heroic fights outside of the last tier doesn't mean we don't enjoy the weeks worth of challenge we get from current heroic fights. You don't need to kill all of the heroic bosses to enjoy the challenge they offer. We enjoy trying the heroic content while on skype chatting and joking while making a decent effort at progression.

What isn't enjoyable (for us) is farming the same bosses over and over in one night even while sitting on skype talking and joking. Under the proposed changes that's all we are going to be able to do while we wait for the next tier of content.
Edited by Serraphis on 11/12/2013 11:25 PM PST
90 Tauren Death Knight
20155

You're on Area 52, which from what I understand is the horde equivalent of my server- chock full of players and reasonably high end raid guilds. People transfer to my server from dead servers all over to join raid guilds, so I'm assuming you experience a similar phenomenon. Your guilds is also reasonably progressed so I'm not surprised you're not having that much difficulty filling your raid.

Many of the people posting in this thread are on servers where the recruiting pool is far weaker. Some of them play during schedules which aren't peak times, where it's more difficult to keep a raid staffed. The EU guilds suffer from other issues such as language compatibility. Some of the groups may raid heroics but not progress as fast as your group, and therefore are likely to suffer bleed to groups which progress faster (no doubt that's where most of your apps come from). There are many reasons why most 10 man groups will have a harder time upgrading their raids to mythic size than you seem to think.

Expansions also tend to cause some player loss to raids regardless, so while you're losing mostly the players who'd already be leaving with a new expansion and have to pare down a bit less, they'll be trying to build up to over twice as large a raid group, dealing with loss of players, and having to fight every other 10 man out there trying to do the same thing for the good players that might be out there.

That's before you even consider whether they will actually enjoy leading a 20 man group. I have enough experience with leading 25 man groups to know I don't want to go back to it.

Anyone claiming that 25 mans are going through anywhere near the impact as 10 mans from this change is lying to themselves or deluded.


I'm on Area 52 now, I was on Velen before that (check how dead THAT server is) and managed to recruit there (although it was far tougher, just took more effort) and on Wildhammer before that.

And no, I am not lying to myself or deluded. Cutting a single player for the simple reason of "sorry, Blizz says we have to cut people" is harder than recruiting 2 players. Maybe I'm strange because I'm a heroic raid leader who actually cares about his raiders (don't anyone tell them I said that) but if I had to just cut 5 of my friends because Blizz said no more 25s, I'd be pissed. Recruiting 10 players is a challenge, ditching 5 people just cuz is a kick to the chest.
90 Tauren Death Knight
20155


Why can't you hang out in Skype, kill bosses and have fun in normal and heroic? You even said yourself that you barely even kill much in heroic and it isn't until the end of the tier. If the game is so stale, and you play because you enjoy your friends' company, then why does the Mythic change matter to you? Is it because you are lying and that you really just want to complain for no good reason?


No because we kill normal before the next tier of content is available. Just because we don't get to kill more than the first 4 or so heroic fights outside of the last tier doesn't mean we don't enjoy the weeks worth of challenge we get from current heroic fights. You don't need to kill all of the heroic bosses to enjoy the challenge they offer. We enjoy trying the heroic content while on skype chatting and joking while making a decent effort at progression.

What isn't enjoyable (for us) is farming the same bosses over and over in one night while sitting on skype talking. Under the proposed changes that's all we are going to be able to do while we wait for the next tier of content.


So if they made normals (heroics) a bit harder in the next xpac, possibly with a VERY challenging end boss to keep that barrier to heroics firmly in place, would it put group's collective minds at ease that they won't need to have 20 people? Not trying to be a jerk but genuinely curious, if you could get enough more of a challenge out of normals that you never actually made it into heroics, would that make it seem like less of a problem that you don't have 20, or would it still bother you that even if you if could get there that it wouldn't be an option.

I'm trying to understand the motivation of disliking this change from the "mostly normal raider" standpoint.
90 Worgen Mage
20350
Shouldn't need to cut anyone going 25 -> 20. Recruit less, perhaps, but recruitment is always an ongoing process. Natural attrition will take care of the issue itself, and having a slightly bloated roster isn't a bad thing at the beginning of an expansion, a time when you will be running all difficulties to gear up. If they're willing to stick it out between now and WoD, you know you have a consistent, dedicated player. Basically anyone whos on your roster now and still playing when WoD launches probably is a keeper. These days it's difficult to find someone willing to keep playing more than a year. Not doing yourself any favors to cut them, especially if we're looking at fights where one of X class is required.
Edited by Digerati on 11/12/2013 11:36 PM PST
90 Troll Shaman
13735
Then stop responding to the mostly normal raider and respond to me.

10 man heroic guild that raids 10 hrs a week. Progressing thru tier right now as it is current. Oceanic guild so irrelevant of server recruiting options are light, most other guilds that raid oceanic at our level raid somewhere between 50-100% extra hours per week that noone in our guild can / want to do. Wheres our solution ?
90 Troll Warlock
14795


No because we kill normal before the next tier of content is available. Just because we don't get to kill more than the first 4 or so heroic fights outside of the last tier doesn't mean we don't enjoy the weeks worth of challenge we get from current heroic fights. You don't need to kill all of the heroic bosses to enjoy the challenge they offer. We enjoy trying the heroic content while on skype chatting and joking while making a decent effort at progression.

What isn't enjoyable (for us) is farming the same bosses over and over in one night while sitting on skype talking. Under the proposed changes that's all we are going to be able to do while we wait for the next tier of content.


So if they made normals (heroics) a bit harder in the next xpac, possibly with a VERY challenging end boss to keep that barrier to heroics firmly in place, would it put group's collective minds at ease that they won't need to have 20 people? Not trying to be a jerk but genuinely curious, if you could get enough more of a challenge out of normals that you never actually made it into heroics, would that make it seem like less of a problem that you don't have 20, or would it still bother you that even if you if could get there that it wouldn't be an option.

I'm trying to understand the motivation of disliking this change from the "mostly normal raider" standpoint.

I think I speak for most people when I say It's not about the difficulty itself - it's about tackling "the hardest" content available, because it's there to be conquered.
90 Draenei Priest
0


No because we kill normal before the next tier of content is available. Just because we don't get to kill more than the first 4 or so heroic fights outside of the last tier doesn't mean we don't enjoy the weeks worth of challenge we get from current heroic fights. You don't need to kill all of the heroic bosses to enjoy the challenge they offer. We enjoy trying the heroic content while on skype chatting and joking while making a decent effort at progression.

What isn't enjoyable (for us) is farming the same bosses over and over in one night while sitting on skype talking. Under the proposed changes that's all we are going to be able to do while we wait for the next tier of content.


So if they made normals (heroics) a bit harder in the next xpac, possibly with a VERY challenging end boss to keep that barrier to heroics firmly in place, would it put group's collective minds at ease that they won't need to have 20 people? Not trying to be a jerk but genuinely curious, if you could get enough more of a challenge out of normals that you never actually made it into heroics, would that make it seem like less of a problem that you don't have 20, or would it still bother you that even if you if could get there that it wouldn't be an option.

I'm trying to understand the motivation of disliking this change from the "mostly normal raider" standpoint.


Yep (sort of), we don't really give a damn what Blizz chooses to call it. What we want is something to do in between patches other than sit around waiting for next tier. Give us something after normal that offers a challenge for us while the most elitist of the elite go and do what ever they want in Mythic. Making "Normal" so hard that the majority of guilds cant complete it before the next patch hit would not work. It flies pretty directly in the face of everything Blizz has done with regards to people seeing content.

I feel I need to reiterate that just because a guild doesn't down all content on heroic doesn't mean they should automatically be excluded from trying. It is genuinely very good fun to go and attempt these fights even knowing you might not get all the way up to the last boss.

The challenge offered from downing AND attempting current Heroic content, combined with having fun with mates over skype etc is what is going to be taken away from a great many 10 man guilds next expansion.
Edited by Serraphis on 11/12/2013 11:42 PM PST
90 Human Warlock
17000
3) While 10-player guilds who want to do Mythic will need to pick up an extra 10 people, current 25-player guilds will need to shed some. That’s yet another thing that will lead into a higher pool of potential recruits.

In what world is that going to help? We're one of a ton of 10m guilds recruiting, and we've never managed to have a legitimate bench this expansion. The 16 25 man guilds on Proudmoore are going to shed enough people to feed the 177 10 mans listed on WoW Progress? If we trim that down to guilds that have cleared half the instance, that's 12 to 125; even pretending there's 0 loss from the raider pool, that doesn't even remotely add up. 60 raiders added to a demand of 1250? That's barely worth mentioning.

4) Flexible scaling for Heroic (or Mists of Pandaria's "Normal") difficulty will allow many guilds to "ease in" to a 20-player raid size. Granted, if you’re planning on zoning into Mythic the first day it’s available, this won’t help you much, but for the guild that will spend a few weeks or months on Heroic (MoP Normal) difficulty before eventually clearing it and starting on Mythic, you’ll have plenty of time to expand your roster. What’s more, those new recruits won’t be expected to just warm the bench while they wait.

Yeah, I remember trying to work up from a 10m into a 25m over time in BC. Know what happened? People constantly left for guilds that already had enough for a raid already, and needed another body for the bench or as a replacement. Why won't this happen again? What is someone's incentive to stay in a 15 man guild that's trying to find 5 more people, when they could join a guild in Mythic?

But that comparison doesn’t really work, because the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)

They get to play if guilds that are already in mythic are recruiting too.

Edit: Basically, don't spit on me and tell me it's raining; your explanations don't add up.. A large amount of guilds are going to break, and you know it. That's where the extra raiders for the 10->20 conversion is coming from.
Edited by Serinicas on 11/13/2013 12:10 AM PST
90 Dwarf Paladin
15550
2) On a similar note, we’re continuing to roll out the Connected Realms feature. As more realms are connected, the potential recruitment pool on those realms will grow.


Statements like this only serve to reinforce the idea that Blizzard is out of touch with this portion of the playerbase.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think hardcore raiding guilds still recruit significantly from their own server. That hasn't been the case for years. Lower the absurdly high price of transferring across factions and with alts, and the playerbase might be more forgiving of a massive guild disruption.
Edited by Psiven on 11/12/2013 11:42 PM PST
90 Tauren Death Knight
20155

Yep, we don't really give a damn what Blizz chooses to call it. What we want is something to do in between patches other than sit around waiting for next tier. Give us something after normal that offers a challenge for us while the most elitist of the elite go and do what ever they want in Mythic. Making "Normal" so hard that the majority of guilds cant complete it before the next patch hit would not work. It flies pretty directly in the face of everything Blizz has done with regards to people seeing content.

I feel I need to reiterate that just because a guild doesn't down all content on heroic doesn't mean they should automatically be excluded from trying. It is genuinely very good fun to go and attempt these fights even knowing you might not get all the way up to the last boss.

The challenge offered from downing AND attempting current Heroic content, combined with having fun with mates over skype etc is what is going to be taken away from a great many 10 man guilds next expansion.


I see what you're saying, maybe Blizz will take the middle ground a bit with tuning and make Normal kind of halfway between Flex and Normal, and new Heroic halfway between current normal and heroic, so that it can continue to present a challenge for almost all groups until the end of the tier. Also, and I'm not saying they should, if they made entering heroic require clearing normal that would make it seem like flex was just gone, they made normal and heroic both flexible but scaled each down somewhat, and added a new tier above and beyond heroic that most groups wouldn't reach anyway unless it was their purpose to get there...

hmmm, if only.
90 Tauren Druid
18460
11/12/2013 11:41 PMPosted by Psiven
2) On a similar note, we’re continuing to roll out the Connected Realms feature. As more realms are connected, the potential recruitment pool on those realms will grow.


Statements like this only serve to reinforce the idea that Blizzard is out of touch with this portion of the playerbase.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think hardcore raiding guilds still recruit significantly from their own server. That hasn't been the case for years. Lower the absurdly high price of transferring across factions and with alts, and the playerbase might be more forgiving of a massive guild disruption.


Or make Mythic cross-realm. All the other modes are cross-realm, why isn't Mythic?
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