The good side of Mythic 20man

100 Draenei Priest
11945

Yep, we don't really give a damn what Blizz chooses to call it. What we want is something to do in between patches other than sit around waiting for next tier. Give us something after normal that offers a challenge for us while the most elitist of the elite go and do what ever they want in Mythic. Making "Normal" so hard that the majority of guilds cant complete it before the next patch hit would not work. It flies pretty directly in the face of everything Blizz has done with regards to people seeing content.

I feel I need to reiterate that just because a guild doesn't down all content on heroic doesn't mean they should automatically be excluded from trying. It is genuinely very good fun to go and attempt these fights even knowing you might not get all the way up to the last boss.

The challenge offered from downing AND attempting current Heroic content, combined with having fun with mates over skype etc is what is going to be taken away from a great many 10 man guilds next expansion.


I see what you're saying, maybe Blizz will take the middle ground a bit with tuning and make Normal kind of halfway between Flex and Normal, and new Heroic halfway between current normal and heroic, so that it can continue to present a challenge for almost all groups until the end of the tier. Also, and I'm not saying they should, if they made entering heroic require clearing normal that would make it seem like flex was just gone, they made normal and heroic both flexible but scaled each down somewhat, and added a new tier above and beyond heroic that most groups wouldn't reach anyway unless it was their purpose to get there...

hmmm, if only.


I can't speak for the rest of the 10 mans out there (and the 25s who feel they are affected too) but personally, and I think from my guilds perspective, that is the ideal solution to this situation. =D
100 Gnome Monk
12705
So you can't make Maulgar-style fights unless you have an exact 20-man raid size...

Yet the same fights will still be available for 10 to 25 people on the other 3 difficulties...

Did I get that right?


Mechanics will be largely different in Mythic. Probably to the point where it is a different feeling fight. They even talked about mythic trash at blizzcon.
90 Tauren Death Knight
20225


So if they made normals (heroics) a bit harder in the next xpac, possibly with a VERY challenging end boss to keep that barrier to heroics firmly in place, would it put group's collective minds at ease that they won't need to have 20 people? Not trying to be a jerk but genuinely curious, if you could get enough more of a challenge out of normals that you never actually made it into heroics, would that make it seem like less of a problem that you don't have 20, or would it still bother you that even if you if could get there that it wouldn't be an option.

I'm trying to understand the motivation of disliking this change from the "mostly normal raider" standpoint.

I think I speak for most people when I say It's not about the difficulty itself - it's about tackling "the hardest" content available, because it's there to be conquered.


So, does it present a problem then, even if you were otherwise unable to reach mythic in a tier anyway, purely because your group would be blocked from even attempting it if you got there purely do to size?
Does it diminish the motivation to do normals, even if you're in a group that typically can't even clear those (that's some of the people I'm talking to about this) because you know if finished it you couldn't go past that?
90 Worgen Druid
14130

We raid 10m heroic and I'm sure there are many other heroic 10m guilds with limitations such as timzone, language, raid hours, etc. We may not be the majority but our concerns are very real and valid.


I didn't say they weren't, I just wanted to make sure the person I quoted knew that the changes were only affecting heroic (mythic) raid groups and that normal (heroic) raid groups are still going to be able to run with 10 people if they want to.


>>>>Stormbeebes, this isn't meant to be personal as I realize you could be trying to speak for others, but just taking a quick glance at your toon and guild's achievements, it doesn't look like you guys really do heroics so this isn't going to affect you.

I'm not trying to be attacking, it is just that I'm seeing lots of people sweating these changes and how Blizz is getting rid of 10 mans, but the fact of the matter is they're only getting rid of 10 man HEROIC raiding, and only 10 man guilds that actually raid heroics have something the be worried about. <<<<

We raid 6 hours a week so yes it takes us several months to clear normals and get some HM down. We did clear DS and we are expecting to clear SOO. We have also guild swapped and server changed a few times. In fact we often do not raid some weeks when our schedules conflict. We are not hardcore but never the less we take raiding seriously when we do raid. I don't think we are that unique there are a lot of guilds that may start and never clear all the hard modes this doesn't mean this change won't effect us.

I know you were not trying to attack but what I don't like is the notion that only the few guilds in the world that have the time and coordination to clear HM's should have a voice in this. It effects many more then that. There are a lot of guilds and servers that raid hard modes but may never complete them. It is not always because the players are bad either most of the time it is because we value our time offline as much as we value our raid time online.

We will be killing Garrosh in the next week or so. If this was WOD in two weeks time we'd have nothing left to do except wait 6-8 months until the next patch. That is why I detest this change.
100 Gnome Rogue
11155
he says they didn't take making this decision lightly? well it looks like they don't give a crap about the trouble it takes to double your raid rosters size, nor the friendships and memories being destroyed when the 25's tell the 5 they are not good enough to stick around and raid with them anymore.

I see a lot of lost subs over this, way more than Blizz is expecting, oh well all good things must come to an end.

sad

edit: the best thing anyone could do is put this game down and be done with it. So much stress and angst over something that is supposed to be fun, it's a shame what entertainment has turned into.
Edited by Belo on 11/13/2013 12:00 AM PST
100 Tauren Paladin
11175
11/12/2013 11:05 PMPosted by Faybelle
I'm sorry if that seems rude but unless your group progresses very quickly in terms of both skill and persistence, the "20 man conversion" is not a problem you're really dealing with


I could not disagree with you more. Heroic (soon to be Mythic) progression is not exclusive to guilds that clear the content in the first two weeks. Just because a guild progresses more slowly doesn't mean that they are incapable of doing the content, and expecting them to settle for normals then twiddle their thumbs for three months waiting for the next tier of content is ridiculous.


You are twisting his argument (or misinterpreting it). He is saying that if it takes you 3 months to clear heroic, then you have 3 months to recruit for Mythic even if you wait until the moment raiding starts. You have much longer if you start recruiting early.

Those people that you recruit can actually join your raid as well. You don't have to sit them for 1/2 the fights and swap people out to see how they perform. You can raid with up to 25 people (which would be a really good amount to have going into mythic) and see how they perform in a raid environment.
100 Draenei Paladin
17780
@Lore

I don't think wanting to design some fights with class specific abilities in mind is worth this drastic change tbh, and this seems like the main reason so far too.

We've always known 25mans cheese some things more easily then 10mans but we still raid 10mans, and requiring certain classes to kill a boss is troublesome. That naxx example, didn't it require at least 4 priests for every kill? That means every raid needed at least 4 priests, and if they were healers they couldn't heal either right? I dunno...
100 Troll Warlock
16255

I think I speak for most people when I say It's not about the difficulty itself - it's about tackling "the hardest" content available, because it's there to be conquered.


So, does it present a problem then, even if you were otherwise unable to reach mythic in a tier anyway, purely because your group would be blocked from even attempting it if you got there purely do to size?
Does it diminish the motivation to do normals, even if you're in a group that typically can't even clear those (that's some of the people I'm talking to about this) because you know if finished it you couldn't go past that?


So you're talking about a difficulty beyond current Heroic, in which case no, we probably would be ok not doing Mythic. However I doubt that kind of difficulty will ever be introduced because of how small an audience it will serve. How many guilds have killed Heroic Garrosh? Blizzard surely won't develop content exclusive to a handful of guilds in the world.
90 Tauren Death Knight
20225


I didn't say they weren't, I just wanted to make sure the person I quoted knew that the changes were only affecting heroic (mythic) raid groups and that normal (heroic) raid groups are still going to be able to run with 10 people if they want to.


>>>>Stormbeebes, this isn't meant to be personal as I realize you could be trying to speak for others, but just taking a quick glance at your toon and guild's achievements, it doesn't look like you guys really do heroics so this isn't going to affect you.

I'm not trying to be attacking, it is just that I'm seeing lots of people sweating these changes and how Blizz is getting rid of 10 mans, but the fact of the matter is they're only getting rid of 10 man HEROIC raiding, and only 10 man guilds that actually raid heroics have something the be worried about. <<<<

We raid 6 hours a week so yes it takes us several months to clear normals and get some HM down. We did clear DS and we are expecting to clear SOO. We have also guild swapped and server changed a few times. In fact we often do not raid some weeks when our schedules conflict. We are not hardcore but never the less we take raiding seriously when we do raid. I don't think we are that unique there are a lot of guilds that may start and never clear all the hard modes this doesn't mean this change won't effect us.

I know you were not trying to attack but what I don't like is the notion that only the few guilds in the world that have the time and coordination to clear HM's should have a voice in this. It effects many more then that. There are a lot of guilds and servers that raid hard modes but may never complete them. It is not always because the players are bad either most of the time it is because we value our time offline as much as we value our raid time online.

We will be killing Garrosh in the next week or so. If this was WOD in two weeks time we'd have nothing left to do except wait 6-8 months until the next patch. That is why I detest this change.


I see where you're coming from, I guess I'm just not sure why some groups that maybe only do 1-2 heroics in a tier are acting more devastated than some of the 10m groups I know for whom the only raiding is heroic raiding.

Also, and not saying you necessarily were, but please don't think guilds that clear heroics raid all that much more than yours do. For the time we spent in SoO to kill Garrosh, if we only raided 6 hours a week we still would have just killed him the 3rd week instead of the 2nd (we raid 9 1/2 hours a week, maybe 10 if we're a bit slow on clean up night)

But I guess the reason I don't feel all that bad for guilds that clear normals after 2-3 months and have nothing to do but farm is... How is that different than clearing heroics (mythics) after 2-3 months and having nothing to do but farm?
90 Dwarf Hunter
13160
whats the big deal? half of the people concerned in the forums will not make it to mythic content anyway.

Thank you for posting I got a good laugh. I'm surprised it took until 220 to mention this. I guess some build up was needed.
90 Tauren Death Knight
20225


So, does it present a problem then, even if you were otherwise unable to reach mythic in a tier anyway, purely because your group would be blocked from even attempting it if you got there purely do to size?
Does it diminish the motivation to do normals, even if you're in a group that typically can't even clear those (that's some of the people I'm talking to about this) because you know if finished it you couldn't go past that?


So you're talking about a difficulty beyond current Heroic, in which case no, we probably would be ok not doing Mythic. However I doubt that kind of difficulty will ever be introduced because of how small an audience it will serve. How many guilds have killed Heroic Garrosh? Blizzard surely won't develop content exclusive to a handful of guilds in the world.


I'm not saying Mythic would have to be impossible. If heroic next expac was only maybe 10-25% more difficult than normal now, it'd present a little bit of a challenge and perhaps slow down some of the heroic (mythic) groups, but they'd still make it to mythic with plenty of time to progress for the tier, but it would effectively block a lot of the guilds who take 2-3 months to clear normal from clearing until the very end of the tier, thus preventing that "well we're stuck here just because we only have 14 raiders" feeling. Obviously some would still hit that as group's don't fall perfectly into skill/progress categories, it would just be less than with normals being as easy as they are now.
100 Troll Warlock
16255


>>>>Stormbeebes, this isn't meant to be personal as I realize you could be trying to speak for others, but just taking a quick glance at your toon and guild's achievements, it doesn't look like you guys really do heroics so this isn't going to affect you.

I'm not trying to be attacking, it is just that I'm seeing lots of people sweating these changes and how Blizz is getting rid of 10 mans, but the fact of the matter is they're only getting rid of 10 man HEROIC raiding, and only 10 man guilds that actually raid heroics have something the be worried about. <<<<

We raid 6 hours a week so yes it takes us several months to clear normals and get some HM down. We did clear DS and we are expecting to clear SOO. We have also guild swapped and server changed a few times. In fact we often do not raid some weeks when our schedules conflict. We are not hardcore but never the less we take raiding seriously when we do raid. I don't think we are that unique there are a lot of guilds that may start and never clear all the hard modes this doesn't mean this change won't effect us.

I know you were not trying to attack but what I don't like is the notion that only the few guilds in the world that have the time and coordination to clear HM's should have a voice in this. It effects many more then that. There are a lot of guilds and servers that raid hard modes but may never complete them. It is not always because the players are bad either most of the time it is because we value our time offline as much as we value our raid time online.

We will be killing Garrosh in the next week or so. If this was WOD in two weeks time we'd have nothing left to do except wait 6-8 months until the next patch. That is why I detest this change.


I see where you're coming from, I guess I'm just not sure why some groups that maybe only do 1-2 heroics in a tier are acting more devastated than some of the 10m groups I know for whom the only raiding is heroic raiding.

Also, and not saying you necessarily were, but please don't think guilds that clear heroics raid all that much more than yours do. For the time we spent in SoO to kill Garrosh, if we only raided 6 hours a week we still would have just killed him the 3rd week instead of the 2nd (we raid 9 1/2 hours a week, maybe 10 if we're a bit slow on clean up night)

But I guess the reason I don't feel all that bad for guilds that clear normals after 2-3 months and have nothing to do but farm is... How is that different than clearing heroics (mythics) after 2-3 months and having nothing to do but farm?


Because having the feeling that you've conquered everything the game has to offer, is what drives (some) people to raid.
100 Troll Warlock
16255


So you're talking about a difficulty beyond current Heroic, in which case no, we probably would be ok not doing Mythic. However I doubt that kind of difficulty will ever be introduced because of how small an audience it will serve. How many guilds have killed Heroic Garrosh? Blizzard surely won't develop content exclusive to a handful of guilds in the world.


I'm not saying Mythic would have to be impossible. If heroic next expac was only maybe 10-25% more difficult than normal now, it'd present a little bit of a challenge and perhaps slow down some of the heroic (mythic) groups, but they'd still make it to mythic with plenty of time to progress for the tier, but it would effectively block a lot of the guilds who take 2-3 months to clear normal from clearing until the very end of the tier, thus preventing that "well we're stuck here just because we only have 14 raiders" feeling. Obviously some would still hit that as group's don't fall perfectly into skill/progress categories, it would just be less than with normals being as easy as they are now.


That would only shift the population. It will certainly narrow down the groups that can tackle Mythic, but it doesn't really solve the problem. There really isn't a good place to draw the line. It may take a few additional weeks for current heroic guilds to step into Mythic, but they'll get there.
100 Troll Warrior
17630
You know what would be really constructive?

If all the 10-man heroic raiding guilds who feel they can't recruit up to 20-man would just go make a thread somewhere, "Looking to Merge" and join up with a like-minded guild.

Bam. Problem solved.

Lore has answered this thread with infallible logic. It's best to have one raid size for Mythic raiding. A 15-person raid simply can't count on the class diversity of 20. A 15-person raid simply isn't close enough to 25 to be large enough to feel "Mythic", let alone 10. Remember when raids were 40?

20 will give a larger diversity to required strategies. Give the designers credit. They thought very very deeply about this. There will be growing pains in the short term, but long-term it will be great for the health and design of the highest level raiding tier.
Seeing a lot of debate about the number 20. Let me take a stab at clearing up a few things:

We chose to put Mythic at 20 largely for the function of raid design. One of the biggest issues we're currently facing with 10-player Heroic raiding is that of raid composition. It's impossible for every group to have every class, and often that means they're lacking in certain tools, which in turn means that we can't design encounters around those tools (or if we do, it becomes extremely frustrating for the 10-player Heroic guild that suddenly needs a Paladin for Hand of Protection).

We want to be able to use those sorts of mechanics again. Those of you who have been with us for a while might remember things like Mage tanks on High King Maulgar, or Priests using Mind Control on Instructor Razuvious. We want it to be okay when, say, the Paladin can use Hand of Protection to clear a dangerous debuff, because we can reasonably assume that most guilds will have at least one Paladin in their raid. We like it when someone gets to feel awesome and have a special task on a fight because of class abilities that otherwise wouldn't get much use.

We can't do that when we're designing with a 10-player raid size in mind. We don't think we'd be able to get away with it at 15 either. At 20, it becomes a lot more acceptable for us to say "you should probably bring a Mage to Spellsteal this." And honestly, that's just one example of the sort of encounter mechanics we can start to utilize in a larger group size.

I'd also call into question the statement of "It's easier to drop people than it is to recruit them." It's technically true, yes -- finding new raiders is harder than just not inviting the ones you have -- but totally ignores the fact that cutting people from your roster often means losing people you like. Which feels better: making new friends, or telling your current ones that they don't get to play with you any more? We're already asking a lot of many 25-player Heroic groups to cut 5 people.

As I mentioned before, this was not a decision we came to lightly. It's definitely going to be a very scary transition for a lot of people. We knew that when we made the decision. We just also feel quite strongly that, when the dust settles, we'll be able to provide a better raiding experience for everyone.


Does this mean the philosophy of bring the player not the class is reverting?
100 Tauren Paladin
11175
11/12/2013 11:22 PMPosted by Serraphis


Why can't you hang out in Skype, kill bosses and have fun in normal and heroic? You even said yourself that you barely even kill much in heroic and it isn't until the end of the tier. If the game is so stale, and you play because you enjoy your friends' company, then why does the Mythic change matter to you? Is it because you are lying and that you really just want to complain for no good reason?


No because we kill normal before the next tier of content is available. Just because we don't get to kill more than the first 4 or so heroic fights outside of the last tier doesn't mean we don't enjoy the weeks worth of challenge we get from current heroic fights. You don't need to kill all of the heroic bosses to enjoy the challenge they offer. We enjoy trying the heroic content while on skype chatting and joking while making a decent effort at progression.

What isn't enjoyable (for us) is farming the same bosses over and over in one night even while sitting on skype talking and joking. Under the proposed changes that's all we are going to be able to do while we wait for the next tier of content.


So let me get this straight:
- You will have MONTHS and MONTHS to recruit and prepare for Mythic.
- You and your friends are so anti-social that you don't want to include anybody else in your clique.
- You and your friends don't usually even get half way through heroic (mythic) tiers, but you still want to prevent the developers from giving the best content they can to people like me who actually have a chance to experience all of it.

Well you just seem unreasonable. You basically want everything and don't want to compromise at all. Maybe you should either break out of your shell and try to get to know more people or play other games when you and your friends finish clearing a tier on flex (normal) and normal (heroic). If you actually enjoy their company, then it shouldn't really matter what you're doing.
100 Troll Warlock
16255
You know what would be really constructive?

If all the 10-man heroic raiding guilds who feel they can't recruit up to 20-man would just go make a thread somewhere, "Looking to Merge" and join up with a like-minded guild.

Bam. Problem solved.

Lore has answered this thread with infallible logic. It's best to have one raid size for Mythic raiding. A 15-person raid simply can't count on the class diversity of 20. A 15-person raid simply isn't close enough to 25 to be large enough to feel "Mythic", let alone 10. Remember when raids were 40?

20 will give a larger diversity to required strategies. Give the designers credit. They thought very very deeply about this. There will be growing pains in the short term, but long-term it will be great for the health and design of the highest level raiding tier.


We all understand 20 is a good size. We know they'll be able to create better raids if they can focus on one size. We know that.

The issue is that many guilds have their own limitations that makes recruiting/merging very difficult. For example, for us, there is ONE guild in the world that fit our limitation/progress/timezone/effort, and they are on a different server. Do we ask them to all transfer? Or do we all transfer there?
90 Tauren Druid
13205

It's not about the difficulty itself - it's about tackling "the hardest" content available, because it's there to be conquered.


So, does it present a problem then, even if you were otherwise unable to reach mythic in a tier anyway, purely because your group would be blocked from even attempting it if you got there purely do to size? Does it diminish the motivation to do normals, even if you're in a group that typically can't even clear those because you know if finished it you couldn't go past that?

I probably shouldn't speak for heroic 10-mans, since I primarily raid 25N. However, what I have gathered from their posts on the threads here, and talking with friends (both raiders and guild leaders), the main difference is hopes and dreams, if you will. Knowing that they *CAN'T* do the new Mythics unless they completely shake up their guild structure, more than double their roster (20 mans will need at least 3 or 4 people as a bench, while 10 mans often get away with none at all, or 1 or 2 at most), is very discouraging. I don't think that most would be satisfied even with harder normals (the new heroics), unless they actually were difficult enough not to complete.

If heroic next expac was only maybe 10-25% more difficult than normal now, it'd present a little bit of a challenge and perhaps slow down some of the heroic (mythic) groups, but they'd still make it to mythic with plenty of time to progress for the tier, but it would effectively block a lot of the guilds who take 2-3 months to clear normal from clearing until the very end of the tier, thus preventing that "well we're stuck here just because we only have 14 raiders" feeling. Obviously some would still hit that as group's don't fall perfectly into skill/progress categories, it would just be less than with normals being as easy as they are now.

That might help, but at the beginning of the tier, they aren't going to know how long it will take to progress through normals (the new heroics). So, it doesn't give them any motivation right at the start. Also, they still know that they can't attempt any of the Mythic (currently heroic) bosses, so I doubt that they'll be satisfied with it. It might work for some groups, but it's no universal panacea. There also is no indication from Blizz that they plan to do this, if anything, moving to flexible scaling and cross-realm groups is giving people the perception that it's just glorified LFR/Flex.
100 Tauren Shaman
13310
Does this mean the philosophy of bring the player not the class is reverting?


This philosophy has never really mattered anyway. Ever since it was uttered it was a joke. Players were still benched for class stacking or specific class roles, even with the high level of homogenization in the game.

Frankly, "bring the player, not the class" never should have been intended for the highest difficulty PVE content in the game. Ever. It's a great philosophy for the upcoming Flex-scaling difficulties but for Mythic modes there should be an element of class-oriented strategy. Otherwise, what the hell is the point? Mythic just becomes a more dangerous version with more health and more damage but little real change.
Edited by Nyd on 11/13/2013 12:16 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
14130
[quote][quote]
I see where you're coming from, I guess I'm just not sure why some groups that maybe only do 1-2 heroics in a tier are acting more devastated than some of the 10m groups I know for whom the only raiding is heroic raiding.

Also, and not saying you necessarily were, but please don't think guilds that clear heroics raid all that much more than yours do. For the time we spent in SoO to kill Garrosh, if we only raided 6 hours a week we still would have just killed him the 3rd week instead of the 2nd (we raid 9 1/2 hours a week, maybe 10 if we're a bit slow on clean up night)

But I guess the reason I don't feel all that bad for guilds that clear normals after 2-3 months and have nothing to do but farm is... How is that different than clearing heroics (mythics) after 2-3 months and having nothing to do but farm?


Yea you have good points as well. Maybe the solution is to get content out faster then we'd all stay entertained! :)
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