The good side of Mythic 20man

90 Tauren Paladin
8555
You start out with a level head.

Oh I see, you misunderstood me though. Which was my fault, I didn't punctuate my paragraph correctly. What I meant was that in general if the changes went through, if we had to go and find another 10 players, given all the other issues I brought up it would simply be easier for us to not raid.


Then you seem to realize that you're actually wrong in this debate and get angry. Calling people "asshats" and then telling them to grow up isn't very mature.

Sometimes you have to compromise. Blizzard has decided to go this direction with Mythic raiding and you disagree with it. Well, many of us love the idea and are willing to make the changes required to raid at that level. Granted, you don't actually raid at that level, but you do dabble in heroics now and want them to go back on a great design philosophy so that you can eventually do it without having to make any compromises.

Well, we're all going to either adapt and do Mythics or we're not. You can get as angry as you want and stick by your assertion that you don't want to even try to play with anybody but your 9 friends in your current guild. That's okay, but it also means that you won't be stepping foot in Mythics. There's going to be lots to do other than that and hopefully you'll enjoy yourself. Although I think you're more dead set on being angry and miserable than anything else, so I imagine that you'll at least accomplish that goal.

If you really enjoy playing with your friends as much as you say you do, then it shouldn't be as big a deal as your making it. However, as bullheaded as you are, I imagine there are some of them that won't mind looking elsewhere so that they can do Mythics. Good luck in WoD.
90 Draenei Warrior
13010
However, even if they want to leave it in, they don't have to be as concerned that its difficulty varies somewhat with raid size, simply because Normal/Heroic doesn't have to be nearly as tightly tuned as the top tier of content.


If its class specific, more than likely, it would get cut from the Flex version.

Cut class mechanics out from King Magular and you have a boring fight.
90 Undead Hunter
16605
I understand the logic behind this change and why Blizzard feels it will make their jobs easier and why 25 man heroic raiders are happy about it. Unfortunately, all I can think about everytime I look at this change coming is how Blizzard has essentially ripped out the part of the game I like the most, and I keep trying to figure out whether there's still a way for me to still enjoy the game enough to stick around.

I've been raiding with the same guild since vanilla (we had 2 40 man teams back then). I've done the larger raids for several years, and I've slowly seen the friends I've played with gradually drop out of the game as life and other events intervened. In Wrath we got to the point where all our raid leaders were burned out on raid leading larger groups, so we welcomed the change in Cata where we could have smaller more closely knit raid groups whose schedules worked for everyone in the groups.

I started my own 10 man at the beginning of Cata to raid weekends, because my work schedule didn't really allow for me to raid during prime raid hours anymore. I've always enjoyed having a group of fairly close knit members who could be relied upon to show up, be adult about things and generally have a good time. My group never raided with a bench- we relied on friends and alts and fillins when someone couldn't make it, and usually my folks were really good about advance notice so it worked. Over the last couple years I've had to replace folks in the group, but we've managed to keep things going fairly well- with 6.5 hrs to raid a week (and no people to swap out for optimizing encounters) we were never the most progressed group, but we made our way through the content at our own pace, getting to heroics and doing as many as we could before the new tier was released.

Now I'm told that if I want to keep doing what is essentially the heroic content (renamed though it is), I will need to go back to the days of large group raiding- with constant recruiting, having to run a bunch of extra people to cover attendance issues, needing more formal gear distribution, and all the other headaches that come with leading a raid twice as large as the one I currently run.

Alternately, I can leave my guild that I've been in for 9 years, and hope to find another guild which meets my schedule (there aren't a lot of them) that I actually enjoy raiding with.

Or if I prefer, I can just stick with raiding what is essentially normal mode content (which I would have been done with weeks ago if that was all I was doing this tier) after having spent 9 years in this game raiding more challenging content and then wonder what else I can find in the game to get excited about.

Or I could just stop playing and find something else to do with my time (my apologies to those who use my website, but currently this is the most likely option)

Blizzard doesn't really have an answer to this problem I know, but I've talked to many friends in similar boats and a lot of them are also wondering if maybe it's just time to call it quits.


Thank you for posting so eloquently on this. It's incredible how closely our situations mirror. And there are countless others out there just like us. Pretty sad really that Blizzard is forcing these rather limited options on us, to the point where leaving the game seems like the most viable option.

Maybe more posts like this from people with your reputation will help Blizzard realize this is a bad move. My 10 man group means something personally to me. You crush that and I'm gone.
Edited by Mikeleach on 11/13/2013 7:29 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
20750
It's upsetting that this post completely ignores the people who have computers that can't handle the 20 man raid format.

Yesterday in flex, three of our 25 people, two of which are in our 10 man heroic group, were literally grinding to a hault on encounters like Malorok, Siegecrafter and Garrosh. So we're not recruiting from 10-20... we're recruiting from 8.

Secondly, it seems 'bring the player, not the class' is being thrown completely out the window. During Blizzcon and in your recruit a friend help video, you've stated that playing World of Warcraft is about 'playing with friends' now more than ever. Moving up to 20 man and requiring specific classes seems to contradict this philosophy.

Moving up to 20 man inherently means you're going to need to raid with some people with whom you aren't interested in playing. This is exacerbated by class requirements for encounters. What is your proposed solution for passing these class requirements without needing to recruit people we don't want?

Also, I'd contest that class specific requirements just aren't all that interesting. Ultimately, they come down to looking up the fight online and figuring out that one, magic button to push to 'win' the encounter. Let's look back at some of these over the years.

Instructor Razuvious: 25 mans needed to bring two priests to down the encounter, 10 man could have anyone mind control the units with orbs of control. The 'interesting' mechanic was using his own men against him; does using mind control make this more interesting some how?

High King Maulgar: This encounter required a mage to spell steal in order to tank the mage unit. The healing was predictable and often times 1 of the weakest healers was assigned to keep this person alive. What's more interesting than the spell steal was that this guy often died later because the mage needed a significant threat lead in order to keep him aggroed. But what's the different between this and something like a dead Klaxxi buff that gives you a special action button to tank this guy? Maybe only casters can click it. Does pressing button A (spell steal) inherently make it more interesting that pressing Button B (special action button).

Throne of Thunder: The funny thing is, class specific benefits really haven't gone away over the years. Troll council's frostbite mechanic can be negated by smoke bomb. Iron Qon's wind storm can be easily avoided with demonic gates. Bombs on Iron Juggernaught can be stacked and absorbed instantly by a dispersing priest (or feral druid, but you still need a priest to get disperse). Blessing of Protection on pretty much everything!

But what makes these acceptable is that the encounters worked without doing these tricks. You don't need to BoP for the Mark of Anguish on Protectors or to alter time to soak multiple rifts on heroic Sha of Pride. You certainly don't need to Grofiend's Grasp the lightning orbs in on Lei Shen or use Leap of Faith (life grip!) to get melee up the hill after demolishers on Galakras.

At some point, it's acceptable to assume we can upgrade our video cards. Let's hope that moving forward, we don't have to 'upgrade' our class as well.
55 Human Paladin
0
Seeing a lot of debate about the number 20. Let me take a stab at clearing up a few things:

I'd also call into question the statement of "It's easier to drop people than it is to recruit them." It's technically true, yes -- finding new raiders is harder than just not inviting the ones you have -- but totally ignores the fact that cutting people from your roster often means losing people you like. Which feels better: making new friends, or telling your current ones that they don't get to play with you any more? We're already asking a lot of many 25-player Heroic groups to cut 5 people.


Wrong. They aren't cutting 5 people. They are running with 20 while having an extremely comfortable rotating bench to help deal with attrition/absence of players. Running with just 10 or just 25 is dumb. One person posts out for a raid and then you are hosed. Furthermore, those extra 5 people can rotate in and out based on fight needs.
90 Pandaren Hunter
16715
11/13/2013 07:27 AMPosted by Eliana
However, even if they want to leave it in, they don't have to be as concerned that its difficulty varies somewhat with raid size, simply because Normal/Heroic doesn't have to be nearly as tightly tuned as the top tier of content.


If its class specific, more than likely, it would get cut from the Flex version.

Cut class mechanics out from King Magular and you have a boring fight.


Well, most would find normal Siegecrafter (I assume) boring after doing heroic Soegecrafter anyways. Yet those working on normal Siegecrafter think its fun. Its not the same thing but its similar.

A better example may be heroic Will of the Emperor. What if they made it where the sparks were unkillable and would 1 shot you unless you immuned it? That would have no impact on a still fun normal mode fight but would add class specific mechanics.
90 Tauren Druid
19085
They aren't cutting 5 people. They are running with 20 while having an extremely comfortable rotating bench to help deal with attrition/absence of players. Running with just 10 or just 25 is dumb. One person posts out for a raid and then you are hosed. Furthermore, those extra 5 people can rotate in and out based on fight needs.


Many 25 man guilds already have a comfortable bench... usually 10-12 extra people. Dropping 5 from the raid team means the bench will grow to 15-18. You cannot support 2 progression teams at the high end in a guild, one will always be the B team, and no-one wants to be on the B team. Ever.

So just saying you can use those 5 for the bench is dumb.
90 Pandaren Hunter
16715
On the computer issues: lets see if Blizzard can solve this input lag once and for all. That would solve a lot of problems.
90 Human Warrior
11590

Stormbeebes, this isn't meant to be personal as I realize you could be trying to speak for others, but just taking a quick glance at your toon and guild's achievements, it doesn't look like you guys really do heroics so this isn't going to affect you.



Fast look at his achievements would have shown you that they got there first Heroic Jin Rohk kill on 07/09 ... Patch 5.4 went live what 10/10? So what shoudl have they done for those what 3 months? Just farm normals even when they are faceroll easy instead of getting workign week in week out to get those 2 heroic kills they got? The guilds that only get a couple of heroic kills but spend the majority of there raid time getting those are who will get killed by this change not the ones that already clear it!
90 Orc Shaman
17000
11/13/2013 06:42 AMPosted by Blizzhoof
3) The new "Mythic Mode" I feel should be flexible as well. Why the sudden hard cap? If it's easy to tune a fight between 10-25 people for Flex and Normal..... sorry, "Normal" and "Heroic"....., then it should be just as easy to do it for Mythic Mode as well, shouldn't it???


I stopped reading here. Anybody that makes this assertion is either trolling or not intelligent enough to take seriously. I'd explain why flex tech for Mythic is a TERRIBLE idea, but it would take a lot of words and it still wouldn't sink in.


Yet, if Blizzard actually announced that they were going to use the scaling tech on Mythic form the onset, then what would you have said to that? Nothing that's what and I'm calling BS on your part cause you're even copping out of an explanation. Can't even take you seriously with that crap! lol

I've played enough games since 1983 to know what is and isn't possible in video games and firmly believe that Blizzard can scale any difficulty as they see fit but just choose not to like they're doing here.
90 Human Rogue
10305
Wrong. They aren't cutting 5 people. They are running with 20 while having an extremely comfortable rotating bench to help deal with attrition/absence of players. Running with just 10 or just 25 is dumb. One person posts out for a raid and then you are hosed. Furthermore, those extra 5 people can rotate in and out based on fight needs.


...That would assume we are only running with 25 now. We will dropping from a 32 man roster down to a 27 man roster (or cutting 5).

11/13/2013 07:36 AMPosted by Odina
Fast look at his achievements would have shown you that they got there first Heroic Jin Rohk kill on 07/09 ... Patch 5.4 went live what 10/10? So what shoudl have they done for those what 3 months?


Fast look at my achievements shows I got heroic lei shen on 7/10 (and ra-den 5 days following). What is it exactly you think I did for those 3 months?
90 Worgen Hunter
8665
11/12/2013 07:17 PMPosted by Lore
It's definitely going to be a very scary transition for a lot of people.


I worry that Blizzard may be missing the main objection to the proposed changed to heroic raiding. I'm not "scared" of recruiting additional people. I'm not scared of participating in a 20-person raid.

The point is: I don't want to play in 20-person raids. I simply prefer 10-person raiding. Many of us do: individual performance is arguably more critical in a smaller raid, there is less cat-herding to do, etc.

Please reconsider taking away the 10m raid option. I'd be happy to accept that mythic raids would be balanced around having 20 people with some encounters requiring a particular class. If mythics are relatively harder for 10 than for 20, then so be it. I just want the option.
90 Tauren Druid
19085
Many of us do: individual performance is arguably more critical in a smaller raid


What makes you think there's more individual responsibility though in a 10 man? In 25 man man it is even more critical, one person screwing up in 25 man (and there's more people in a 25 man to make the mistake) tends to mean a raid wipe just as easily as there is in 10.
90 Pandaren Hunter
16715
For casual heroic raiders remember: the first tier generally you progress much less than other tiers because you start out with nothing and it takes a lot of work to get back into the rhythm of raiding. Have to level your professions, level yourself, don't have optimal gear, attendance commonly an issue, etc. And all of that with a non-hardcore mindset.

I doubt many casual heroic guilds would even get down more than 1 or 2 heroics. Likely would clear normals and next tier right around the corner. You'll have time to adjust. Worry about it for T18.

This is a 16 boss tier coming up. That's ALOT of bosses. You won't be bored.
90 Draenei Warrior
13010
Well, most would find normal Siegecrafter (I assume) boring after doing heroic Soegecrafter anyways. Yet those working on normal Siegecrafter think its fun. Its not the same thing but its similar.

A better example may be heroic Will of the Emperor. What if they made it where the sparks were unkillable and would 1 shot you unless you immuned it? That would have no impact on a still fun normal mode fight but would add class specific mechanics.


Anything from Mists isn't a great example of a Warlords fight.

If they design an awesome fight on Mythic that utilizes multiple class mechanics (similar to King Magular) then when they need to scale the fight down, its not going to be as good. The very nature of the fight is different.
90 Worgen Hunter
8665
11/13/2013 07:47 AMPosted by Waraila
Many of us do: individual performance is arguably more critical in a smaller raid


What makes you think there's more individual responsibility though in a 10 man? In 25 man man it is even more critical, one person screwing up in 25 man (and there's more people in a 25 man to make the mistake) tends to mean a raid wipe just as easily as there is in 10.


Well, my reasoning is that the loss of 1 person in 10 = 10% of the raid is dead. Loss of 1 person in 20 = 5% of the raid is dead.

That wasn't particularly central to my point, though. I gather you prefer 25s, and I know a lot of people do as well. My point is: a lot of other people prefer 10s (for whatever reasons, even if you think these reasons are "wrong.")

It seems reasonable to ask Blizzard to continue to accommodate the preferences of both groups of people.
90 Pandaren Hunter
16715
Well, most would find normal Siegecrafter (I assume) boring after doing heroic Soegecrafter anyways. Yet those working on normal Siegecrafter think its fun. Its not the same thing but its similar.

A better example may be heroic Will of the Emperor. What if they made it where the sparks were unkillable and would 1 shot you unless you immuned it? That would have no impact on a still fun normal mode fight but would add class specific mechanics.


Anything from Mists isn't a great example of a Warlords fight.

If they design an awesome fight on Mythic that utilizes multiple class mechanics (similar to King Magular) then when they need to scale the fight down, its not going to be as good. The very nature of the fight is different.


Mechanics have evolved so much further than HKM though. They wouldn't have that few mechanics in a fight.
90 Draenei Hunter
9320
It seems reasonable to ask Blizzard to continue to accommodate the preferences of both groups of people.


Blizzard threw away 5+ million subscribers and an entire expansion pack trying to cater two tiny-but-loud audiences: the "Pure 10s" and the "Finder Tool" crowd. They realized when they introduced Flex that the actual "Pure LFR" audience is tiny. They've come to the same conclusion with the "pure Heroic 10" audience.

They screwed up, big time, buying into the whines of people who want things smaller, easier and more convenient. They've already moved away from that this tier, and next expansion is, as I told everyone a year ago, the end of 10-man as you know it, and the gutting of the over-inflated LFR rewards.

It's frankly about time, makes zero sense for Blizzard to "accommodate" an audience that wants to bury the game alive just to make their personal play experience less challenging (and that is, frankly, what this is about). This whole 10 malarky started from people wanting guaranteed raid spots and gear.
90 Dwarf Death Knight
16855
Mechanics have evolved so much further than HKM though. They wouldn't have that few mechanics in a fight.


Yes, but they could evolve them even further while having unique fights.

It's been a feel that most encounters since Tier 7 have been homogenized and generic, there's only a ew breakout fights.
90 Human Rogue
10305
Well, my reasoning is that the loss of 1 person in 10 = 10% of the raid is dead. Loss of 1 person in 20 = 5% of the raid is dead.


But if 5% is enough to wipe you in a 25 man raid (and often times it is) whats the difference?

It seems reasonable to ask Blizzard to continue to accommodate the preferences of both groups of people.


They are... just not at the highest difficulty. Current difficulty balance aside (its a moot point now) as many of you are realizing managing a bigger roster is more work. I see many people saying they don't want to do the things that it takes to run a larger raid team. Why you feel entitled to the same upper pinnacle content despite doing less work?
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