The good side of Mythic 20man

90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
11/11/2013 09:02 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Why would this change have any impact on 25 mans?


25 mans naturally dies just like any other size. Lots of guilds die for one reason or another.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
15320
Due to 1/3 of the current guilds disolving mostly. Raiding numbers have been in decline over the past few years. Less guilds means less overall room.


Personally I blame the lack of community in 10 mans. You only have so many people to urge you to continue playing. In a 25 man (e.g. in my guild the other on my server) we have thriving communities within our guild and outside of it. Having 40 people chat in guild chat on a dying server the way it was in previous expansions for almost all guilds only enhances the experience and enjoyment of this game.

A huge majority of my roster would have quit if it wasn't for the friends they have made in our guild. The 30+ of us screaming in vent when we get a kill, the 30+ of us poking fun of each other for real life hic ups, being able to have 30+ other people express concern when you're having a bad day and WANT to know if they can help. THAT is the stuff of old Vanilla and BC guilds that I wanted to re-emulate as GM. Those were what gave me the fun times in Vanilla and BC. I rarely remember the progression, I remember the times in Vent joking around or between pulls making jokes.

I believe that with large scale raids and leaders like the old, that this game will become fun again for so many and not so "tight nit" as so many claim to ONLY have with 10 man. It's complete BS- having MORE people only makes community thrive more.

But, more importantly - when someone quits from a 10 man roster, or that ONE person quits that you were really close with then it changes the entire dynamic; you will soon quit the game or guild. Where as in a larger raid, you have MORE than ONE person that is pushing you to continue playing because you WANT to see that person every 2 nights a week. You may be close and know he's going through something serious and you WANT to see how his divorce is going and if they need time to vent (literally) to you. Facilitating that relationship.

I believe that more solid guilds will come out of this. I believe that structure will be needed to progress at the mythic level, PREVENTING guilds from just being able to say "Oh, well i disagree with this ONE officer, let's go MAKE OUR OWN 10 MAN!"

Lots of guilds die for one reason or another.


What is causing so many guilds to disband - both 10 AND 25 man - is the simple fact that it's SO outrageously easy to leave your guild and start a new one because the scope of actual leadership is so small with the idea of hardcore raiding in 10 man. But when you actually have to be a leader with more people less people will quit.
Edited by Vinceypoo on 11/11/2013 9:06 AM PST
100 Night Elf Warrior
11615
The best about Mythic 20m, no more thread about "10 vs. 25."


Thank god about that, I was tired of defending the real form raiding hhaha
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Personally I blame the lack of community in 10 mans. You only have so many people to urge you to continue playing. In a 25 man (e.g. in my guild the other on my server) we have thriving communities within our guild and outside of it. Having 40 people chat in guild chat on a dying server the way it was in previous expansions for almost all guilds only enhances the experience and enjoyment of this game.


An you are entitled you your opinion. I've raided both sizes over the years, did both 10 and 25 this expac. I don't think that there is more "community" in every 25. Some of them? Sure. But others are just cliques of players. The community killed itself and has nothing really to do with raid size imo.
90 Human Warrior
11590
Why would this change have any impact on 25 mans? All we are doing is cutting our bottom 5 players which then once again join the pool of available players for newly formed mythic guilds.


Think of that though... you have a good 10 man heroic guild and they are awesome... now you need to take in 10 more... simply going "ok lets take 5 cut from 25 man X and 5 from 25 man Y =/= good recruits as the bottom 5 of a 25 man can be way worst than the 10th of a really good 10 man!

any how either way there will be a lot of !@#$ that will go down and in the end I personaly belive (opinion here does not have to agree with yours) that the last thing raiding needed was another monkey wrench thrown in it's gears and pissing more people off and potentially loosing more progress oriented raiders. As it is now we are already a rare breed be it normal or heroic raiders... having more leave in my opinion is not a good strat to make it better.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
15320
The community killed itself and has nothing really to do with raid size imo.


That was what I meant as my main point, and I appreciate the civility. I was not exactly BASHING 10 man. Just the fact about how easy it is now to start a guild as the culprit.
100 Human Rogue
11320
As it is now we are already a rare breed be it normal or heroic raiders... having more leave in my opinion is not a good strat to make it better.


I don't think they will be leaving, I think they will be joining new guilds.
100 Blood Elf Warlock
10630
I actually think the opposite because of the following reasoning.

Since all the raiding modes are flexible, you will start raiding with your 10 man on Heroic (Normal) when the expansion start and lets say with your bench, the first week you have 13 players.

The second week, you find 3 more players in to recruit from collpasing 10mans. You raid with 16 players, you still do not need to sit ANYONE on the bench, everybody can raid.

Third week , you are now 8/10 heroic (Normal) because the process of gearing up is making the whol progress slower and you are not raiding with 21 players.

Finally when you clear everything in heroic (Normal) you have 23 players and you mention to your guild that next week, you will try Mythic Mode!

Can't tell if this is serious :( I'm really losing my ability to detect trolls
90 Human Warrior
11590
Personally I blame the lack of community in 10 mans. You only have so many people to urge you to continue playing.


I have a bigger sense of comunity with the 10 man I'm in now than I ever did in 25. I care more about the other 9 people in this group than I ever was with 25 and 40 man rading. I view it this way... I'm closer with the people in my department far more than everyone in the office. The same for raiding in 25 and 40 I was close with those in my class role but outside of that not so much...in 10 I'm close with all the group.

different strokes for different folks!
90 Human Warrior
11590
11/11/2013 09:13 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
As it is now we are already a rare breed be it normal or heroic raiders... having more leave in my opinion is not a good strat to make it better.


I don't think they will be leaving, I think they will be joining new guilds.


Just like all those 10 man raiders joined new guilds instead of leaving from WOTLK raid conversion to the Cata one?
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
I don't think they will be leaving, I think they will be joining new guilds.


I am a betting man and would wager a 10-15% drop in overall participation. I will keep playing but i don't think that everyone will. Anyone with a crappy computer, lack of transfer funds, or dislike of the change are likely to unsub.

Funny thing at the end of the day, with all the smoke being blown around everywhere. It is simply Blizzard attempting to spend less money on a small subsection of the game.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15990
11/11/2013 09:05 AMPosted by Vinceypoo
Personally I blame the lack of community in 10 mans.


I agree with nearly everything you've said. The majority of casual-to-semi-hardcore (meaning some heroics, but almost never all heroics) 10-man guilds are fly-by-night guilds that are here one tier, gone the next. I've seen more 10-man guilds come and go than I have 25-man guilds go.

I'm a fairly new member to my guild but I enjoy 100% of my guild's raiding core. I don't talk to all of them, but nobody does anything that outwardly annoys me, and there's not really a whole lot of cliqueyness. I haven't taken much time to be in a 10-man guild, but the short time I was in a 10-man guild I found myself enjoying the company of most of the members, but some members really, really annoyed me. If it wasn't for my enjoyment of this game and raiding I may have been drawn to quit with the bad experience from that 10 man.

Of course you could say "just take the time to join a 10 man guild that fits you! you'll enjoy the community a lot more!" -- but that could take a long, long time. When I joined my guild I felt instantly welcomed into their community, not like I was sitting down at the popular kid's table at high school. That's what my 10-man experience felt like. I graduated high school too long ago to feel that way again.

I guess everyone can have different experiences but I really like the larger raid size more. My 40-man guild was like a community too. You CAN have a community, tight-knit feeling in a large raid size.
100 Night Elf Warrior
11615
An you are entitled you your opinion. I've raided both sizes over the years, did both 10 and 25 this expac. I don't think that there is more "community" in every 25. Some of them? Sure. But others are just cliques of players. The community killed itself and has nothing really to do with raid size imo


I tend to agree with the guy above you, there should never have been a way to get the same rewards and often more progression by dumping 15 of your players and going 10man.

This is what killed the raiidng scene at the beginning of cata.. The thought process : Hey, if Me and players A through J were alone, we would do sooo much better, and have the same rewards!.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
there should never have been a way to get the same rewards and often more progression by dumping 15 of your players and going 10man.


I am not looking to debate 10 vs 25 here. It is what it is. But all this statement means is that you are carrying 15 people with not enough skill. It is a very flawed way to look at it. Any serious 25 would just keep banging their head against the wall.
100 Human Rogue
11320
Just like all those 10 man raiders joined new guilds instead of leaving from WOTLK raid conversion to the Cata one?


...you mean when the only difficulty bad players where capable of completing was removed? Yeah, apples meet oranges.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15990
Oh gee look, another jerk from a 25-man guild congratulating blizzard on screwing the rest of us over.

Awesome.

(NOTE: The ONLY good thing about forcing us all to go to 20-mans is that after that people like this !@#$%^- won't be able to say how much "easier" 10-man is than 25 man)


You're not all forced to go 20 man. You can continue doing 10-man on normal (in WoD, heroic) mode. You appear to do mostly normal mode content right now anyway. The only way I see this affecting 10-man normal guilds is they don't ever get the chance to do mythic mode if they don't recruit 10 more people, which sucks for the guilds who do maybe 2 heroics per tier. But if you don't do them consistently right now, you'd have a hard time recruiting 10 more people with the hope of doing mythic mode anyway. It's like the guilds in vanilla who trade chat spammed with "Guild is a new guild we are going to start doing MC as soon as we have enough members" - you knew that the chances of them doing MC were pretty low when you saw them spamming that.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
8560
11/11/2013 09:13 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
As it is now we are already a rare breed be it normal or heroic raiders... having more leave in my opinion is not a good strat to make it better.


I don't think they will be leaving, I think they will be joining new guilds.


That would imply you believe this game has a rather large displacement with human physiology.

Attachment to ones current social activity is a powerful enough tool to let them continue within settings which they no longer enjoy.

Considering that I'd be willing to bet that about 2/3 of those casual have some form of heroic progression 10 man guilds fall into that catagory, then it's basically a waiting game.

If anything, we'll see a lot of 10 mans go into Norm/Heroic while recruiting 2-3 people here to ease in the transition and that it's outright promoted to do so. The number of mythic guilds will be hilariously low for the first 2-3 months.
100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
Oh gee look, another jerk from a 25-man guild congratulating blizzard on screwing the rest of us over.


I can tell from your people skills, why you can't maintain more than 9 people who want to play with you.
100 Night Elf Warrior
11615
I am not looking to debate 10 vs 25 here. It is what it is. But all this statement means is that you are carrying 15 people with not enough skill. It is a very flawed way to look at it. Any serious 25 would just keep banging their head against the wall.


That has nothing to do with it.

Lets be honest here, we do not live in a perfect world, any guilds has players who are ever so slightly worse than others. its a fact, even Blood Legion. The only difference is that a blood legion baddy could probably still kick my !@#.

The only difference between a 25man and a 10 man guild, the 25man said : Hey lets stick together because we are leaving no one behind.

The 10man said, alright screw all 15 of you, we are going to kick some $%^ with those 10 players.
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