The good side of Mythic 20man

90 Draenei Warrior
13010
Uhh, people come back during an expansion, so the people who do quit, will probably even it out (actually the people coming back probably will outnumber the people who quit).


This is true but a large number of people start flaking out as the shine of the new expansion wears off.

Also not all of the people coming back will be raiders. They prefer a myriad of activities and have no desire to raid.
100 Human Rogue
11190
Except it isn't.


It is. You'll see (you won't have a choice =P). Enjoy the final tier in which the path of least resistance is still optimal.

I get all the reasons why you feel you have to do this. However, my group of friends struggles to complete the 10 man roster now. Indeed, we have 7-8 consistent folks and occasionally 2-3 outside the guild that show up. Most often, my group ends up pugging the last 2 spots. Now, you're asking us to double the pain (if not 6x more - as we need to go from finding 2-3 people to finding 12-13) if we ever want to get to heroic/mythic modes.


You've killed 2 heroic bosses while relevant all expansion. I wouldn't worry about mythic.

*Raises Drink

To Blizzard, for making the hard decisions & the awesome changes coming in WoD.


Cheers, it's been a long time coming.
90 Human Priest
18035
While I appreciate the reply and the explanation from lore, it doesn't change the fact that this change is unacceptable to me.

I could live with 15 players. 20 is a really hard pill to swallow.

You need to reconsider. Period.
100 Pandaren Hunter
18230
11/13/2013 08:35 AMPosted by Angosia
We chose to put Mythic at 20 largely for the function of raid design.


I get all the reasons why you feel you have to do this. However, my group of friends struggles to complete the 10 man roster now. Indeed, we have 7-8 consistent folks and occasionally 2-3 outside the guild that show up. Most often, my group ends up pugging the last 2 spots. Now, you're asking us to double the pain (if not 6x more - as we need to go from finding 2-3 people to finding 12-13) if we ever want to get to heroic/mythic modes.

I can't speak for my friends, but I do know that this was the last nail in the coffin, so to speak, for me. I will not be continuing into the next expansion. Once this one ends, so does my subscription. It is not a threat, just a mere reality of the choices - or lack of same - I have going forward.

I had a pretty interesting experience - more so when I switched from druid to rogue - when playing the game. Many bad raiding experiences (most as a druid). I abhor pvp and the annoying Pokemon system in the game. Crafting is 'meh'. But, in the end, I felt it generally worth the money most of the time. I no longer feel that way and am voting with my wallet. Tai Chi classes are looking more interesting by comparison and that's where I will go.

You may have chosen your numbers with great deliberation, but I do know this much for sure: It will lose people. With subscription numbers already 20% lower than they should be, this will not help. Good luck, you'll need it.


If finding 2 people is too hard, then you aren't good enough for heroic/mythic.
100 Pandaren Hunter
18230
While I appreciate the reply and the explanation from lore, it doesn't change the fact that this change is unacceptable to me.

I could live with 15 players. 20 is a really hard pill to swallow.

You need to reconsider. Period.


And I need a home on Mars. Doesn't mean its gonna happen.
90 Draenei Hunter
9320
You mean they threw away +5m when they tried to do what "Hardcores" suggested and make heroic 5-mans superhard.

Anytime Blizzard focused on the superduper-endgame raider, the more they lost.


The declines in Cataclysm didn't happen just because dungeons were hard for a week. The declines in Cataclysm happened because a huge number of guilds were suddenly left completely screwed over because of 10 Heroic.

Normal from Wrath (which is WoD Normal, currently Flex) was eliminated overnight. Doing the same raid multiple times in a week with different groups of people - completely gone overnight. Difficulty was spiked through the roof for small groups and putting the same rewards into 10 Heroic as 25 Heroic let a bunch of guilds just screw over half their roster for faster, easier rewards.

WoD is the OPPOSITE of Cataclysm. You're getting two difficulties that are completely cross-realm and work with pretty much any group size (Normal, Heroic) both of which can be done multiple times per week (only get loot once per toon though) so create a viable PUG scene. You have the most difficult mode (Mythic 20) which is guild / server based. Oh, and LFR is no longer going to reward so much gear that people ignore PUGs completely - as we've seen a preview with the current Flex - the PUG scenes will be alive and well in WoD.

This is essentially the smartest thing Blizzard could have done.
Edited by Subrosian on 11/13/2013 9:05 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
The declines in Cataclysm happened because a huge number of guilds were suddenly left completely screwed over because of 10 Heroic.


So you are saying that the 5 million people that left were raiders? Got it.
100 Orc Warlock
14120
While I appreciate the reply and the explanation from lore, it doesn't change the fact that this change is unacceptable to me.

I could live with 15 players. 20 is a really hard pill to swallow.

You need to reconsider. Period.

rofl. "Period."

People seriously need to get over themselves.
100 Night Elf Warrior
11270
While I appreciate the reply and the explanation from lore, it doesn't change the fact that this change is unacceptable to me.

I could live with 15 players. 20 is a really hard pill to swallow.

You need to reconsider. Period.


How many times in Cata and Mist were the 25man asked to just *swallow* the changes made to the convenience of the 10man because you were more popular.

Blizzard finally realised that big supportive community that do not die overnight when one of the raiders dont show up is the way to go.

They wont reconsider, look at how they've been pushing this at the blizzcon, or here. They are standing strong with their change, and they should.
100 Pandaren Hunter
18230
11/13/2013 09:10 AMPosted by Harpoa
The declines in Cataclysm happened because a huge number of guilds were suddenly left completely screwed over because of 10 Heroic.


So you are saying that the 5 million people that left were raiders? Got it.


Its that bigger communities are better than small community cliques for the game.
Edited by Beloq on 11/13/2013 9:23 AM PST
100 Undead Priest
16765
This will probably kill my guild. We'll churn through "heroic" in a few weeks and then quickly get bored when previously we would have had heroics to keep us occupied.

But whatever, if that's the direction Blizz wants to go, there are other games out there, and we'll probably head over to one of them. Certainly not going to keep paying a monthly subscription to Blizz if heroic raiding is not available.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Its that bigger communities are better than small community cliques for the game.


Nah was more pointing out what a crazy statement it was. Just like how people like to twist sub lose to favor their pov. When most of the subs lost were in asia. Just find it cute.

Community in this game is already pretty terrible, look at this thread. Half filled with quitters, and the other half making fun of them. Seems like a strong community to me.
100 Night Elf Druid
17840
if your guild is either not willing or unable to obtain and maintain a roster for mythic (i.e. going from 10 to 20), just guild hop when you see a guild wanting your class/spec? no big deal
100 Human Rogue
11190
Certainly not going to keep paying a monthly subscription to Blizz if heroic raiding is not available.


Later dude!
90 Undead Monk
13535
Community in this game is already pretty terrible, look at this thread. Half filled with quitters, and the other half making fun of them. Seems like a strong community to me.


Well some of it is because it's been 10 vs 25 since Wrath, some of it is because a lot of people just can't stand whiners, and it's just because people in general like to complain.

That's the internet for you.
100 Human Rogue
11190
That's the internet for you.


Sometimes I miss when the internet was just for pornography.
Edited by Ninjablaze on 11/13/2013 9:30 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Well some of it is because it's been 10 vs 25 since Wrath, some of it is because a lot of people just can't stand whiners, and it's just because people in general like to complain.That's the internet for you.


Agreed, though you have to admit it makes you chuckle.
100 Troll Hunter
15000
The community's reaction to this change is sickening and it's pretty damning evidence that this is, and always was about item level and the level of social interaction required in a game built around social interactions, a game that you previously flat out could not succeed in at any level without a high amount of that social interaction.

While we all understand that this will be a rough transition for 10M-H raiders, especially those that are very casually progressing through heroics right now or will be just starting in the coming weeks -- you are all rallying for the wrong thing.

First off, you have absolutely no idea what the difficulty level will be next tier until at the earliest late beta despite what all of us are assuming. Secondly, if that level of difficulty is insufficient from your perspectives, you should be asking Blizzard to make that content a little more challenging -- even for just 10 people. They can do this by artificially making it more difficult with an increase in boss hp and/or damage without literally breaking the encounter mechanics as the designers envisioned them.

Tuning for 10M-H has literally censored them. They have flat out said they can not do what they want to do because of problems scaling and tuning this specific difficulty to 10 players. Think of Blizzard like an artist/musician having their creative license limited by the corporate suits at the record label.

10Ms were introduced to make end game more easily accessibly to the more casusal content consumers. And it worked just fine -- but let's all remember that they were never intended to be the same difficulty as 25's, whether on heroic or not. Had that difference been kept, we would likely not be here today, and you would continue to have 10M-HC content that was roughly on par with 25m Normal which wasn't poorly scaled and often broken for the format.

The change literally shattered the raiding community at the time and what many of you are experiencing now with lack of prospect guilds, lack of quality recruits, realm/faction changes en masse are the ripple effects of this implementation - which as you can see extend far beyond raiders.

The people most affected by this change, the 10M guilds that is -- are the social ones and not faster based "semi hardcore" or hc progression focused guilds. You all need to take a step back and realize that this raid mode was simply never intended to be easily completed with only a few people, and the mode that was implemented to challenge you was never intended to be on par with the toughest large format equivalent.

I'm not saying your concerns are invalid -- what I'm saying is stop acting like a child who has not gotten their way. Respect the designers and the developers who spend countless hours creating this content for us to devour at whatever pace we respectively choose. If and when the time comes that the flex level which is targeted at your demographic proves to be insufficient, at that time -- and only at that time -- you are well within your rights on beta/ptr to provide your feedback and reasoning to them as to why that content should be more difficult. That still does not mean they are required to do any of it.

This is not about higher ilvl, prestige, feeling elite, epeen, or anything like that. This is blizzard correcting a fundamental flaw which they created within their own game and it's a shame everyone is so emotional that they can not take 2 steps back, a deep breath, and think about this objectively.

Personally I am not opposed to a 10m Mythic format assuming it follows the wrath era format. I just don't think that the 10M raiders will ever settle for this because of raging inferiority complexes, antisocial tendencies, and/or thirst for purple items. I also think 10m raiders are misguided in their assumption that everyone is there because they love 10 man raiding and finally wake up to the fact that half the population is there because they just want to raid and their alternatives were slim or nonexistent. The 10M self-professed elite need to swallow their bitter pill so that the social-casual 10M-H raiders (which are the majority of the 10M format) can have more challenging content. They have been, and they always be one of the largest factors in 10M not having a legitimate hard mode for the 10m format. Ever. Again.

We all welcome the departure of these individuals should they choose to do so now that their free ride to the best loot has run out of gas. And it really is a shame that the majority of 10m participants will be negatively impacted due to the relatively few bad apples, but it is always the few that ruin things for the many.
90 Undead Monk
13535
11/13/2013 09:31 AMPosted by Harpoa
Well some of it is because it's been 10 vs 25 since Wrath, some of it is because a lot of people just can't stand whiners, and it's just because people in general like to complain.That's the internet for you.


Agreed, though you have to admit it makes you chuckle.


Well it makes for some good reading, I'll give you that. On Friday and Saturday, I couldn't pull myself from these forums, just watching the dumpster fire that I knew would happen when they announced the new changes. People yelling at other people (as you know from the healing forums), it was just a train wreck, but I couldn't look away.

Now it's getting tiring.

And I usually enjoyed the 10 vs 25 debate, even though I'll be happy when it's finally gone.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
And I usually enjoyed the 10 vs 25 debate, even though I'll be happy when it's finally gone.


Ehh believe me, people will find something else to fight about. Its what they do. Once they realize that mechanics are still tuned around flex and mythic, they will then blame that part of the game for killing the game and the community. Won't stop til they pull the plug. But it does make for some good bedtime reading.
Edited by Harpoa on 11/13/2013 9:40 AM PST
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