The good side of Mythic 20man

90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
10 man Razivious is actually more proof why this is a good change, not proof that it's been done. Do you really think the terrible crystal idiocy was good design? If nax was a new instance and not a rehash, they wouldn't of even had the MC's on the fight, and they would of just put unbalancing strike on timer with a cooldown and made it another bland time your cooldown with adds fight.


Well, two points here. I don't feel that interactable objects are necessarily bad design at all - I mean, the extra action button is basically a 10 Raz crystal that appears in your UI instead of the world, an even more gimmicky solution. And as I posted in this thread earlier (I think- there are so many identical ones) I would prefer a return to the Wrath 10H model than stripping it out completely - and again, no points for snide references to 10H being Normal already.

EDIT:

The bottom line is that an Instructor Raz mechanic can clearly be ported to 10 and left in its original form on 25, so where is the constrained design space?
Edited by Mahourai on 11/13/2013 12:15 PM PST
100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
Well, two points here. I don't feel that interactable objects are necessarily bad design at all - I mean, the extra action button is basically a 10 Raz crystal that appears in your UI instead of the world, an even more gimmicky solution. And as I posted in this thread earlier (I think- there are so many identical ones) I would prefer a return to the Wrath 10H model than stripping it out completely - and again, no points for snide references to 10H being Normal already.


We basically are though, 10 man is still going to have normal and "Hard" mode.

And like Wrath, you don't really get the hardest mode.
Edited by Azane on 11/13/2013 12:15 PM PST
100 Pandaren Warrior
16360
Its really not.

I get probably 20-30 in 10s and tank hard at about 15 or 16.

But my laptop is terrible. I'm sure its half melted inside (I might look for fun when i get a new one) and its literally a miracle it turns on at this point.

TLDR entirely possible to to be fine in 10s and not handle lfr(or 20 mans), but thats a pebkac issue stop trying to raid on a toaster
Edited by Ðemolition on 11/13/2013 12:19 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
We basically are though, 10 man is still going to have normal and "Hard" mode.

And like Wrath, you don't really get the hardest mode.


We get two modes, like Wrath, but neither one is a progression mode. One you will beat in a day and the other in two or three weeks.

I'd even prefer a TBC-style system where 10 got its own separate baby Mythic dungeon compared to Highmaul 20 and Blackrock Foundry 20. The problem isn't the number of modes you get or a superficial similarity to Wrath, it's that there is no progression 10.
Edited by Mahourai on 11/13/2013 12:21 PM PST
100 Goblin Hunter
21925
11/13/2013 12:14 PMPosted by Mahourai
10 man Razivious is actually more proof why this is a good change, not proof that it's been done. Do you really think the terrible crystal idiocy was good design? If nax was a new instance and not a rehash, they wouldn't of even had the MC's on the fight, and they would of just put unbalancing strike on timer with a cooldown and made it another bland time your cooldown with adds fight.


Well, two points here. I don't feel that interactable objects are necessarily bad design at all - I mean, the extra action button is basically a 10 Raz crystal that appears in your UI instead of the world, an even more gimmicky solution. And as I posted in this thread earlier (I think- there are so many identical ones) I would prefer a return to the Wrath 10H model than stripping it out completely - and again, no points for snide references to 10H being Normal already.

EDIT:

The bottom line is that an Instructor Raz mechanic can clearly be ported to 10 and left in its original form on 25, so where is the constrained design space?


3 tank fights you certainly couldn't expect in 10m. While it was faceroll easy in both difficulties, stone guards didn't really make much sense in 10m. Those can come back now.
100 Human Rogue
11320
We get two modes, like Wrath, but neither one is a progression mode. One you will beat in a day and the other in two or three weeks.


10m wasn't high end progression in wrath either.
100 Goblin Hunter
21925
We basically are though, 10 man is still going to have normal and "Hard" mode.

And like Wrath, you don't really get the hardest mode.


We get two modes, like Wrath, but neither one is a progression mode. One you will beat in a day and the other in two or three weeks.

I'd even prefer a TBC-style system where 10 got its own separate baby Mythic dungeon compared to Highmaul 20 and Blackrock Foundry 20. The problem isn't the number of modes you get or a superficial similarity to Wrath, it's that there is no progression 10.


Well, considering they compared flex when they were introducing it to Wrath 10 normal, saying Wrath 10 normals and heroics matches new normal and heroic I think wouldn't be too far off. For some people that's progression. Not for someone at your skill level, but some it is.
100 Night Elf Warrior
11615
Another interesting fight, Nefarian from BWD Heroic.

This fight was definitely a mistake in terms of 10 VS 25man because 3 pillars, and all the different mechanics that required multiple kick rotation.

I am sure we will see more like these amazing fights in the near future. And it will be awesome :)
100 Pandaren Warrior
16360
You couldnt expect 3 tank fights in 10 man? I think we've seen them in more tiers than not.

Which is a testament to inabilty to port fights
90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
3 tank fights you certainly couldn't expect in 10m. While it was faceroll easy in both difficulties, stone guards didn't really make much sense in 10m. Those can come back now.


You can have a 3 tank fight on 25 and a poor facsimile of it on 10. You just posted demonstrating that fact (I never did SG25 but I assume you're saying it was 3 tanked). So, again, where is the constrained design space? The "real" version of the fight, the 3 tank one, made it to live. The same is true with the split strategies for Kor'kron Dark Shaman. I remember 4 tanking H Halfus Wyrmbreaker 25. Are you suggesting that the existence of an alternative version of the fight on 10 is somehow devaluing the 25 version just by being there? Because if the 25 versions of the fights have the class-specific mechanics and goofball comps it seems like design space isn't being constrained by 10s.

Another interesting fight, Nefarian from BWD Heroic.

This fight was definitely a mistake in terms of 10 VS 25man because 3 pillars, and all the different mechanics that required multiple kick rotation.

I am sure we will see more like these amazing fights in the near future. And it will be awesome :)


So, uh, we have to get rid of 10s so we can return to designing amazing encounters like... Nefarian who had a 10 man mode?
Edited by Mahourai on 11/13/2013 12:29 PM PST
100 Blood Elf Paladin
12740
Blizzard is sticking to their guns on this most likely and it's really pointless to argue the 10 versus 25 thing. There were fights that were harder in 10, some were harder in 25. Your raid size didn't protect you from all the problems that associated with both and pretending one was harder than the other is just absolutely silly and pointless.

As we get closer to the expansion an eye out for how it's going to turn will begin. How will lower pop realms deal with it, how will higher pop realms deal with it. How much recruiting and poaching there will be it. It won't be easy at all and some definitely will never like it. Even in a realm like fine it's not easy to recruit outside or inside the realm. Can't imagine what it's like for one much lower pop.
100 Night Elf Warrior
11615
So, uh, we have to get rid of 10s so we can return to designing amazing encounters like... Nefarian who had a 10 man mode?


I dont think you recall how much whining there was from the 10mans about how strict Nefarian was on class composition of 10man and overall, the first tier of Cataclysm was considered a failure following on the concept of 10=25man.

It created very very plain fights we received, and if you notice, any fights that really is a feat of strenght in creativity always tiped in either 10mans direction or 25man. Its definitely straining the raiding creativity of Blizzard, and if 10man has to die for Blizzard to give us more impressive encounters. Than I say, this is the best of both worlds.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
I dont think you recall how much whining there was from the 10mans about how strict Nefarian was on class composition of 10man and overall, the first tier of Cataclysm was considered a failure following on the concept of 10=25man.


I'm not concerned with the public reception of said encounter. I'm just saying that you posted about having to get rid of 10s so we could design more quality encounters like an encounter that was designed when 10s existed. Clearly 10s did not constrain the design space of Nefarian 25 - in fact the problem you're talking about is that Blizzard refused to alter the design to suit 10s, making it very restrictive in the number of interrupts necessary to clear Nef 10H. So, basically, the opposite of the point you were trying to make.
100 Goblin Hunter
21925
It doesn't devalue the 25m version, but because the versions are so different, they are hesitant to make more of them. That's why there was only 1 intended 3 tank fight in 25 the whole xpac, because it transitions so badly to 10. Without worrying about "will this translate to a good 10m experience?", they can have more fights requiring 3 tanks. A good example would be, Council of Elders in ToT. 2 untankable bosses because thats the only way to make it work in 10. Same with Megaera. Only 2 heads up at a time. Couldve done more heads but 10m limits them.

They also can have more fights with important non-magic dispelling.
Edited by Beloq on 11/13/2013 12:47 PM PST
100 Goblin Shaman
9080
@Lore, all this change has done so far is drive an even deeper wedge between the 10 man and 25 man guilds. Read the forums. Every post that discusses this is filled with 25 man raiders saying "suck it up", "recruit more", or my personal favorite "just don't do Mythic because you obviously aren't dedicated enough".


Or the ever popular: "They'll just have to adapt."

I'm not sure which statement is more nerve grinding.

Looking at this from someone who sticks to normal modes, I just see this effecting all the other modes to a point. Guilds that normally do heroic progression are just going to up and decide "Well we're only going to need 20 people for mythic, so why bother taking the extra 5?"

Sure, you could use the whole "Those people are on standby" argument. But after being on standby for so long, people get tired of it. I had a good friend that had started playing during LK that was on standby mode. He never got to raid, so eventually he quit playing.

That attitude- believe it or not, trickles down to the folks that normally would just stick to the lower modes. Is it silly? Of course it is. However, the community tends to emulate what the more popular guilds are doing as far as group make up/spec of the month goes.

I'm not saying I don't understand the reasoning for this decision, however, I just don't see it turning out the ways Bliz has it planned. Especially now that they have 3 different flex versions they have to work on (LFR, Normal <current flex>, Heroic <currently normal>).

I know it's all doom and gloom, but I just don't see it turning out according to plan.
Edited by Jujubiju on 11/13/2013 12:51 PM PST
90 Night Elf Monk
8805
If you get 1 fps in 25, you get 10 fps at best in 10, or you're exaggerating.

I get maybe 6-8 FPS in combat in 10s, not exaggerating, and that's actually enough. Especially for tanking since the bar is set so low for normal mode tanks. Point is a lot of people talk about LFR being a lagfest. "My computer won't be able to handle 25s" is a legit reason to prefer 10s. (all that means is that I need a new computer before I can do 25s ... the devs are not compelled to design around my toaster. just to be clear.)

edit: I don't even care about who's going to Spellsteal what. I'm looking forward to fights where I take real damage as a tank. I'm looking forward to healers actually being balanced, because they've never been balanced in both 10 and 25 at the same time.
Edited by Rainbodash on 11/13/2013 1:20 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
The funny thing is that design is going to have to build even more fake, crappy 10 versions of an encounter compared to Wrath and T14/15. I mean, 10N and 10H (the new school ones) will still exist alongside 20M. Any class-specific mechanics are still going to have to be scaled down, simulated with extra action buttons or Raz-style crystals, or eliminated in 10. Nothing regarding that will change at all.
100 Human Rogue
11320
The funny thing is that design is going to have to build even more fake, crappy 10 versions of an encounter compared to Wrath and T14/15. I mean, 10N and 10H (the new school ones) will still exist alongside 20M. Any class-specific mechanics are still going to have to be scaled down, simulated with extra action buttons or Raz-style crystals, or eliminated in 10. Nothing regarding that will change at all.


Or just removed as they are the lower difficulty levels are supposed to... well... have lower difficulty.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
Or just removed as they are the lower difficulty levels are supposed to... well... have lower difficulty.


So the existence of watered down 10 versions of a fight doesn't constrain the design space of 20M? Cool, I guess we can stop talking about why that's one of the important reasons for the change.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]