The good side of Mythic 20man

100 Human Rogue
11320
So the existence of watered down 10 versions of a fight doesn't constrain the design space of 20M? Cool, I guess we can stop talking about why that's one of the important reasons for the change.


How did you get that from what I said? I said literally the exact opposite. Removing mechanics from lower difficulties is fine and in fact expected. You can't do that if both sizes retain mythic difficulty because they wouldn't be the same difficulty at all.

I'm not sure what you're smoking.... but I want some.
Edited by Ninjablaze on 11/13/2013 1:32 PM PST
100 Night Elf Warrior
11375
I'm not concerned with the public reception of said encounter. I'm just saying that you posted about having to get rid of 10s so we could design more quality encounters like an encounter that was designed when 10s existed. Clearly 10s did not constrain the design space of Nefarian 25 - in fact the problem you're talking about is that Blizzard refused to alter the design to suit 10s, making it very restrictive in the number of interrupts necessary to clear Nef 10H. So, basically, the opposite of the point you were trying to make


Have you ever seen any other fights that remotely looks like Nefarian after BWD ? No, not because it was not a fun fight, but because it was unfair to 10mans.

We will see those kind of fights again, and I for one, am quite excited over it.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
11/13/2013 01:31 PMPosted by Ninjablaze
Removing mechanics from lower difficulties is fine and in fact expected.


You guys have been beating the drum about 10H being a lesser difficulty than 25H for years, right? So what's the problem with 10H having a 2 tank version of a 3 tank encounter on 25H, or a Raz-style kludge to simulate a class ability? Is this a branding thing, then? Would it be ok if it was 10 Mythic and 25 Legendary?

We will see those kind of fights again, and I for one, am quite excited over it.


The reason the interrupt-heavy T14 design, with fights like Tron, Maloriak and Nefarian was not repeated is because rapid-fire and hair-trigger interrupts are dreadful mechanics. Nobody was clamoring for more Arcane Storms or Arcane Annihilators and it wasn't because of the mean ol' 10s, that's for sure.
Edited by Mahourai on 11/13/2013 1:43 PM PST
100 Tauren Druid
20550
You guys have been beating the drum about 10H being a lesser difficulty than 25H for years, right? So what's the problem with 10H having a 2 tank version of a 3 tank encounter on 25H, or a Raz-style kludge to simulate a class ability? Is this a branding thing, then? Would it be ok if it was 10 Mythic and 25 Legendary?


Because it takes away testing time... it means the team have to spend ages trying to work out how to change the mechanics from 20 to 10. And the two difficulties can never ever be equal, which creates a poisonous rift between the raiding sizes. It also means that, after the complaints about Nef, they can't do fights like that again because of the constraints that 10 people find themselves in when they need X amount of the raid to do Y in separate areas.
90 Pandaren Priest
10970
10 man raiding is harder than 25 man. I'm going to miss it.
100 Human Rogue
11320
You guys have been beating the drum about 10H being a lesser difficulty than 25H for years, right? So what's the problem with 10H having a 2 tank version of a 3 tank encounter on 25H, or a Raz-style kludge to simulate a class ability? Is this a branding thing, then? Would it be ok if it was 10 Mythic and 25 Legendary?


If the 10 man version was significantly less rewarding and explicitly stated to be easier (because somehow when the devs just tweet its easier the message gets lost) then sure, though I don't really see a difference between what I just described and the mythic change.
Edited by Ninjablaze on 11/13/2013 1:52 PM PST
We like it when someone gets to feel awesome and have a special task on a fight because of class abilities that otherwise wouldn't get much use..


can you take timewarp away from mages please
90 Human Paladin
13990
Lore, i was kinda iffy with the 20 man before... but now, i feel 100% comfortable with this, and i think you guys made an excellent decision. Excellent job explaining this, thank you :)
90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
If the 10 man version was significantly less rewarding and explicitly stated to be easier (because somehow when the devs just tweet its easier the message gets lost) then sure, though I don't really see a difference between what I just described and the mythic change.


I feel like people are at turns crowing over the death of 10H and making posts like this where you pretend nothing is really going away at all. It's just a flimsy excuse to post more sick burns about how 10H is basically Normal anyway.

10H is already significantly less rewarding than 25H. We get less gear and less Warforged gear. Additionally, you get to do the Real, Big Boy versions of boss encounters, which is a reward unto itself that 10H can never match.

I would be totally OK with a return to Wrath 10H vs 25H, where 10H is a lower tuning level and drops different gear, with a rebranding to match (10M vs 25L for example). I would like it even better if, thanks to the two big boosts in the WoW dev team, 20M got its own raids and the lower difficulties had their own content (Black Temple vs Karazhan). But then again basically every option is superior to what we're getting, unless you are an employee on the Encounter Design team who needs to cut back on his workload.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
unless you are an employee on the Encounter Design team who needs to cut back on his workload.


And that kids, is what it is all about.
90 Undead Monk
13535
11/13/2013 02:10 PMPosted by Harpoa
unless you are an employee on the Encounter Design team who needs to cut back on his workload.


And that kids, is what it is all about.


I'll definitely take that excuse for the reason they made the best decision in years about raiding.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
I'll definitely take that excuse for the reason they made the best decision in years about raiding


If you step back and look at it without emotion, it is the most logical reason from a business standpoint. I'll do 20's. Hopefully healing doesn't put me to sleep.
100 Human Death Knight
19370
I think they picked 20 man mainly because they really wanted to pick 25 as the "this is the real raiding size." But they felt if they had picked 25 man, they would have pissed more people off than picking 20 mans. Personally i think they should have done 25 man mythic instead of 20 man; mainly b/c adding new friends is easier than saying goodbye to 5 current friends.


The cynical side of me agrees, but thinks the means justify the ends. The practical side of me thinks that 20 is a number that most 25-man guilds average online on raid nights. For quite a while my previous guild raided H MSV with 22 players because the last 3 spots were so in flux.
10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
I will miss the challenge of clearing a raid with a huge gear disadvantage.

also, having a small raid group that I could rely on, with no drama over loot or anything else. :/
90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
There's nothing cynical about 20 specifically. This is TBC II: Electric Boogaloo. If they could do it over again they would have just removed 40s and left 20s as the only raid size in the first place when TBC I launched. So they are, in fact, doing it over again.
100 Human Death Knight
19370
Then you are not getting the experience that the designers want to create. So then you end up crippling their great work out of some personal convenience.


I think this all the time. If my friends had an awesome skate park in their back yard, and they loved using it, I would be a crap friend if I placed all these demands on them to make it all about me. I'd just be stoked they let me ride there, not try to pretend that their back yard suddenly belongs to me and exists for my personal satisfaction. Even if they charged me a small fee to maintain it.
90 Pandaren Shaman
9675
…...

I would be totally OK with a return to Wrath 10H vs 25H, where 10H is a lower tuning level and drops different gear, with a rebranding to match (10M vs 25L for example). I would like it even better if, thanks to the two big boosts in the WoW dev team, 20M got its own raids and the lower difficulties had their own content (Black Temple vs Karazhan). But then again basically every option is superior to what we're getting, unless you are an employee on the Encounter Design team who needs to cut back on his workload.


Isn't the new design basically what you're asking for?

If you want to stick with the 10 people you currently have then you'll be getting less mechanics and easier tuning than Mythic. If the devs can tweak the tuning of the new Heroic mode so it offers a challenge somewhere between current Normal and current Heroic won't that be exactly what you say you want?
Edited by Indyana on 11/13/2013 2:25 PM PST
100 Human Death Knight
19370
I will miss the challenge of clearing a raid with a huge gear disadvantage.

also, having a small raid group that I could rely on, with no drama over loot or anything else. :/


In my opinion, loot drama is the result of poor leadership. Individuals will quibble all the time, but only a bad leader and loot system will allow loot drama to affect a guild.

Nip it in the bud, it's loot, not the last traces of breathable air on the planet.
100 Human Death Knight
19370
10 man raiding is harder than 25 man. I'm going to miss it.


You should do some of it while you can then. Or do you mean you'll miss doing 2/14 bosses. Or do you mean I just got trolled? I'm going with trolled by the Tranquil Master.
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