The good side of Mythic 20man

90 Blood Elf Monk
11980
Have you guys thought about doing near expansion release a 1/2 transfer offer, faction change or race change discounts?

That would certainly help a lot. A sale that lasts a few days.
90 Human Paladin
14585
Simply put, 20-mans afford us the opportunity to have different and more interesting mechanics/encounters. It should also allow them to tune the bosses much better. For any heroic raider, these benefits should really outweigh anything else.


Pretty much wins this thread. The benefits for heroic progression are what should matter to heroic guilds. I don't think it's unreasonable to push the game in that direction at all granted that they can deliver higher quality content than just poor content.

There has to be a line drawn in just how much accountability players must take in order to be cutting edge raiders. It's one thing for Blizz to cater to us for every little thing for every little player group, but if it comes at the cost of quality content, then I feel like it's fine to make a compromise.

Guilds will disband, Guilds will reform. That's inevetable, but as a player, you have to consider that raiding 'socially' and 'hardcore' are two different directions - you might be close knit with your 10 man or don't want to cut those 5 from your roster, but if you want to be at the top end in Mythic content, sacrifices have to be made. If you're in it for the social experience and just to kill time, then you'll be fine in Heroic content.

Anyone who is serious about raiding Mythic content won't have any qualms about making the jump. Anyone who is crying and complaining endlessly about this change has to realise that Mythic content is designed for the hardcore, not the social.
90 Tauren Warrior
11380
We recognize that, for some guilds, the transition from 10-player Heroic raiding to 20-player Mythic raiding is going to be something of a challenge. This wasn’t a decision we made lightly. Ultimately, we feel that the long-term benefits for everyone, such as better-tuned raid encounters, a faster encounter design process, and more variety in raid mechanics, are worth the short-term consequences – even for players in guilds facing this transition.

That said, I think there are several key factors worth bringing up that will help make the transition less frightening overall. For example:

1) This change is coming with an expansion. Historically, an expansion release has always been a volatile time for guild rosters – and a great time for recruitment. When everyone’s gear is suddenly equalized, the pool of potential recruits swells dramatically. It's also a time in which a lot of former players, friends, and guildmates return to the game. Sure, maybe not all of the above will be of the caliber you’re looking for as a Mythic-minded raiding guild, but you only need 10.

2) On a similar note, we’re continuing to roll out the Connected Realms feature. As more realms are connected, the potential recruitment pool on those realms will grow.

3) While 10-player guilds who want to do Mythic will need to pick up an extra 10 people, current 25-player guilds will need to shed some. That’s yet another thing that will lead into a higher pool of potential recruits.

4) Flexible scaling for Heroic (or Mists of Pandaria's "Normal") difficulty will allow many guilds to "ease in" to a 20-player raid size. Granted, if you’re planning on zoning into Mythic the first day it’s available, this won’t help you much, but for the guild that will spend a few weeks or months on Heroic (MoP Normal) difficulty before eventually clearing it and starting on Mythic, you’ll have plenty of time to expand your roster. What’s more, those new recruits won’t be expected to just warm the bench while they wait.

I think that’s an easy one to forget about. It’s easy to make a mental comparison between a Warlords of Draenor 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 20 for Mythic, and a Mists of Pandaria 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 25. But that comparison doesn’t really work, because the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)


You literally paraphrased the answer given at the Q&A at Blizzcon. There's sentences there that match that answer word for word.
Edited by Exorian on 11/12/2013 4:50 PM PST
It's all irrelevant right now. Right now we are staring down months without new content as we wait for expac. People are going to quit out of boredom, and maybe come back at expac. Any work you do to recruit for anything other than SoO progression is pointless. By the time we are actually in a new expac, leveled to 100, geared for progression and looking at Mythic ... i mean, nothing is going to be the same by then. Your rosters will have changed a ton, ppl will reroll with the free 90 ... just cut out the way premature drama please.
90 Pandaren Priest
12305
But what about Karazhan 2.0?
90 Pandaren Priest
12305


You literally paraphrased the answer given at the Q&A at Blizzcon. There's sentences there that match that answer word for word.
90 Orc Death Knight
0
You literally paraphrased the answer given at the Q&A at Blizzcon. There's sentences there that match that answer word for word.


^

Make it mythic 15 and the complaints go away. Decreasing your roster is always easier than increasing. 25 mans have to decrease by 25-33%. 10 mans have to DOUBLE in size.
Edited by Rothulian on 11/12/2013 5:02 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Monk
11980
Make it mythic 15 and the complaints go away.


No. 25 man guilds would take the forums by storm the instant it was announced something like that. Both sides still lose again regardless.

Best thing Blizzard can and should do is offer ways for the transition to be easier.
10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
11/12/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Waraila
That said, I think there are several key factors worth bringing up that will help make the transition less frightening overall. For example:


Lore, one thing that worries some people in the 25 man 'being shed' position is the whole melee stigma that has been ongoing for 2 expacs now. Melee are becoming more and more stigmatised to be not as good as ranged, and ranged heavy raids are the norm. A lot of people in 25 are worried that the 5 lost to the downscale are going to be melee roles because 20 man isn't going to accommodate as many melee as there were in 25.

I hope this is going to be seriously looked at by the devs designing raid encounters to ensure that fights on Mythic do not heavily penalise melee, and no I don't mean making melee just tunnel the boss either. I mean that bringing us means making the mechanics exponentially harder to accomplish. It needs to be more balanced between the two dps roles.


agreed.

give raid leaders a reason to bring melee...a good one. it makes no sense that casters can be the top dps on multi target fights (which melee typically arent so good at), and also the top dps on a patchwerk type of fight.

why bring a melee when casters take less damage, do more damage, and do that damage from 40 yards away?

melee most definitely will be the first to be cut free from 25 guilds making the transition to 20. and hey, I cant say I blame GM's making that decision...i'd do the same.
90 Orc Death Knight
0
11/12/2013 05:02 PMPosted by Aelathel
Make it mythic 15 and the complaints go away.


No. 25 man guilds would take the forums by storm the instant it was announced something like that. Both sides still lose again regardless.

Best thing Blizzard can and should do is offer ways for the transition to be easier.


But we know they wont. In blizzards eyes, theyve done their job by letting us know months in advance. 25 mans will have to shed less ppl than 10 mans have to add. Thats ridiculous. Adding ppl is always harder.
Edited by Rothulian on 11/12/2013 5:05 PM PST
90 Tauren Druid
16650
11/12/2013 05:02 PMPosted by Aelathel
Make it mythic 15 and the complaints go away.


No. 25 man guilds would take the forums by storm the instant it was announced something like that. Both sides still lose again regardless.

Best thing Blizzard can and should do is offer ways for the transition to be easier.


25 mans would lose less players overall than 10 mans have to gain due to how many more 10 mans there are vs. 25 mans.

If this change goes through, there will be even less people raiding Mythic in WoD than there are raiding Heroic. If that's Blizzard's plan, then great, but if it isn't... well, that seems counter productive then!
90 Draenei Warrior
0
I don't think it's unreasonable to push the game in that direction at all granted that they can deliver higher quality content than just poor content.


They aren't going to push the design and deliver better bosses for everyone. Its only for Mythic raids. Everyone else gets exactly what they are getting today and maybe less in some cases.
90 Tauren Druid
7210
You literally paraphrased the answer given at the Q&A at Blizzcon. There's sentences there that match that answer word for word.


So you wanted him to softball it to you?

They aren't going to kowtow to your demands.
90 Tauren Druid
16285
11/12/2013 04:05 PMPosted by Lore
3) While 10-player guilds who want to do Mythic will need to pick up an extra 10 people, current 25-player guilds will need to shed some. That’s yet another thing that will lead into a higher pool of potential recruits.


But the 5 people shedded from 25-player guilds will almost all be DPS. Where do all of the new healers come from that are needed? Each 10-player guild will need to add 2-3 healers and 7-8 DPS. Also, there are no 25-player guilds on my server (or many servers), so there are no shedded people available.
86 Blood Elf Mage
4375
Inb4 the hardest raid difficulty will be with 5 people
90 Troll Druid
17930
We recognize that, for some guilds, the transition from 10-player Heroic raiding to 20-player Mythic raiding is going to be something of a challenge. This wasn’t a decision we made lightly. Ultimately, we feel that the long-term benefits for everyone, such as better-tuned raid encounters, a faster encounter design process, and more variety in raid mechanics, are worth the short-term consequences – even for players in guilds facing this transition.

That said, I think there are several key factors worth bringing up that will help make the transition less frightening overall. For example:

1) This change is coming with an expansion. Historically, an expansion release has always been a volatile time for guild rosters – and a great time for recruitment. When everyone’s gear is suddenly equalized, the pool of potential recruits swells dramatically. It's also a time in which a lot of former players, friends, and guildmates return to the game. Sure, maybe not all of the above will be of the caliber you’re looking for as a Mythic-minded raiding guild, but you only need 10.

2) On a similar note, we’re continuing to roll out the Connected Realms feature. As more realms are connected, the potential recruitment pool on those realms will grow.

3) While 10-player guilds who want to do Mythic will need to pick up an extra 10 people, current 25-player guilds will need to shed some. That’s yet another thing that will lead into a higher pool of potential recruits.

4) Flexible scaling for Heroic (or Mists of Pandaria's "Normal") difficulty will allow many guilds to "ease in" to a 20-player raid size. Granted, if you’re planning on zoning into Mythic the first day it’s available, this won’t help you much, but for the guild that will spend a few weeks or months on Heroic (MoP Normal) difficulty before eventually clearing it and starting on Mythic, you’ll have plenty of time to expand your roster. What’s more, those new recruits won’t be expected to just warm the bench while they wait.

I think that’s an easy one to forget about. It’s easy to make a mental comparison between a Warlords of Draenor 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 20 for Mythic, and a Mists of Pandaria 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 25. But that comparison doesn’t really work, because the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)

You post in the thread with the subject: "The good side of Mythic 20man". You guys try too hard.

As far as your post: #2 - Stop being so damn slow with the connected realms. I'm bored. Like really bored. Poor job catering to the lowly casual.

And for #3 - You're math is a little off.
Edited by Dysheki on 11/12/2013 5:12 PM PST
90 Pandaren Hunter
15800
Have you guys thought about doing near expansion release a 1/2 transfer offer, faction change or race change discounts?

That would certainly help a lot. A sale that lasts a few days.


Hard for even blizzard to decide on this until everyone sees how connected realms turn out. Can't make any decisions until connected realms are done being connected.
90 Human Warrior
16890
I agree that a single size raid for the very top end of progression is required for a myriad of reasons. I'd like the number to be less than 20, but that's my personal preference.

More people in a raid doesn't feel more epic to me. Less people in a raid is more intimate. It's not that I can't scale my guild / raid team up to 20. I don't want to, because I just like 10 man heroic raiding better than 20+.

I love my small guild. I like having a tiny roster, even though it can hurt progression when people are away. I like that running my guild this expansion has been the easiest of any expansion. I like how everyone knows that they definitely have a raid spot each and every night, and there is zero drama. I like that I've had periods of many months without having to do any recruiting.

I'm confident that my guildies and I will adjust to the change. The flex raiding for normal and heroic in WoD already promises huge advantages for us. The change to mythic, while possibly great for the game might not be great for my enjoyment of raiding or my warcaft / RL balance.
Edited by Borgthor on 11/12/2013 5:31 PM PST
90 Troll Shaman
14360
11/12/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Waraila
That said, I think there are several key factors worth bringing up that will help make the transition less frightening overall. For example:


Lore, one thing that worries some people in the 25 man 'being shed' position is the whole melee stigma that has been ongoing for 2 expacs now. Melee are becoming more and more stigmatised to be not as good as ranged, and ranged heavy raids are the norm. A lot of people in 25 are worried that the 5 lost to the downscale are going to be melee roles because 20 man isn't going to accommodate as many melee as there were in 25.

I hope this is going to be seriously looked at by the devs designing raid encounters to ensure that fights on Mythic do not heavily penalise melee, and no I don't mean making melee just tunnel the boss either. I mean that bringing us means making the mechanics exponentially harder to accomplish. It needs to be more balanced between the two dps roles.


I've had this thought too! And I started in Cata, but I noticed that the melee specs are the ones that keep getting added... so design encounters have got to start favoring this! I had one 10 man Pug that was:

Feral Druid
Fury Warrior
Ret Paladin
Windwalker Monk
Enhancement Shaman
Assassination Rogue
Protection Paladin
Blood DK
Disc Priest
Holy Paladin

It was like, ERMAGERD MELEE and we were doing Elegon.

Edit: Corrected the classes - I forgot that we were in Cata... We had a Blood Tank and an Fury Warrior.

They've added DKs and Monks... all along those Melee lines. Melee needs their time to shine!
Edited by Shaylana on 11/12/2013 5:15 PM PST
90 Human Paladin
0
I really see both sides of the argument here, but ultimately this is a sacrifice of convenience for many guilds for a possibility of better designed Hard Mode raid encounters.

Right now raid encounters are designed with two raid sizes in mind and that limits what they are capable of doing but also creates disparities in the difficulty of the encounter from raid size to raid size.

Now with the one size fits all mentality, raid encounters only have one size to be balanced around.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]